COVID-19

[scott2000]

I personally don't understand the negative driven atmosphere as it relates to anything productive outside of  maybe a political  or administrative process.....

I guess like,  if I were in a hospital bed and all the nurses around me were saying this hospital sucks and the Drs don't know what they are doing, I'd more than likely be more stressed and, I'm not sure if  that's a good thing, at least from a medical stand point....

But on a different scale and stage of course.... I do understand the concept of how it may seem to be the way to get stuff done....Just not sure I agree completely.......

 

[dogears]

Because the facts don't bear that out.

The article reports the NSC saying the plan that's referenced is outdated, and there are three guiding documents that they're using:

National Biodefense Strategy (2018)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/National-Biodefense-Strategy.pdf

Biological Incident Annex (2017)
https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/1511178017324-92a7a7f808b3f03e5fa2f8495bdfe335/BIA_Annex_Final_1-23-17_(508_Compliant_6-28-17).pdf

panCAP (2018)
https://www.fema.gov/pdf/about/org/ncp/pandemic_influenza.pdf

Which was adapted into:
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6819-covid-19-response-plan/d367f758bec47cad361f/optimized/full.pdf

It took me less than 30 seconds to google and find those documents. So what is wrong with these plans? Are they insufficient? Do you know? They are from 2017 and 2018, so it isn't like they were made in March.

So yeah, he had a playbook to follow the whole time. He's just using the 2017/2018 playbook, not the outdated 2016 playbook.

I don't know if you realize this, but the Federal Government hasn't shut anything down. Which is good, because that isn't how federalism works. If any state or local health official says its necessary to close through easter, they can and should do that. That's been the message all along.

Maybe they're a little heartbroken that the work they did to mitigate this situation was largely ignored by the current regime.

Yep. And in their heartbreak they run and leak to the press to cause FUD. Real patriots.

 

[living sounds]

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/boosting-your-immune-system-during-a-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR1fNO5tOskdBfYL5lVcVAmmabLw3_BimKn0CU0kJOviIbld7TxWld3lXs4

 

[gyraf]

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/boosting-your-immune-system-during-a-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR1fNO5tOskdBfYL5lVcVAmmabLw3_BimKn0CU0kJOviIbld7TxWld3lXs4

..to sum it up:

The short answer to the question – how do you boost your immune system – is that you can’t.

No reason to go there..

 

[Tubetec]

I'm an outsider to all the DEM/REP divide that exists stateside, having said that I have been badged 'LIBTard' by some , not here by the way 
Theres a kind of notion of Presidential infallibility  I see in some , a reverence for the office itself more than who ever happens to be at the helm , a white blind light you could call it . Its seems clear to me the President is not a well man at all . Should we be surprised a career money man cant take his eyes off bottom line economics while millions of lives hang in the balance , no  I don't think so .

While my above statement will be construed as just more partisan finger pointing once again by some , I believe the exact same 'engine' runs inside every country and its associated political, cultural and religious  divides , there is none so blind as those who will not see .

I'm sure Ive made the above point before too .

 

[dogears]

The president isn't the government. That's why you don't see much of anything change in US policy from administration to administration. Especially big ticket stuff, foreign policy, etc.

 

[dogears]

Letter to the governors re: new guidelines to come

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6819627-letter1

 

[living sounds]

Kid in LA died of the virus because he didn't have health insurance:

https://gizmodo.com/teen-who-died-of-covid-19-was-denied-treatment-because-1842520539

 

[living sounds]

..to sum it up:

No reason to go there..

Yes, but surprisingly few people are aware of that. In this thread there were tips posted how to boost your immune system. But that's just not how it works.

 

[hodad]

So yeah, he had a playbook to follow the whole time. He's just using the 2017/2018 playbook, not the outdated 2016 playbook.

And he didn't follow that either. 

I don't know if you realize this, but the Federal Government hasn't shut anything down. Which is good, because that isn't how federalism works.

I am aware the Feds haven't shut anything down.  They also haven't provided much leadership, guidance, consistency or coordination for the states.  As Jay Inslee pointed out, the quarterbacking from DC has been second string at best. 

 

[dogears]

Kid in LA died of the virus because he didn't have health insurance:

https://gizmodo.com/teen-who-died-of-covid-19-was-denied-treatment-because-1842520539

No, he died because he went to into cardiac arrest en route to the hospital, and the article you linked said its not really clear yet why he died (initially they said septic shock from the virus but they're investigating).

If you're within hours of death, an urgent care clinic is not going to save your life. Y'all in Europe may not know this but these places are typically small facilities with a couple of exam rooms. They can treat minor emergencies when normal doctors offices are closed, but they're not like an actual emergency room. A lot of them don't even have a physician there all the time - mostly if you go they will be staffed by a nurse practitioner. "Urgent care" is billed at a different rate than "Emergency care" and different again than a normal doctor's visit.  It doesn't have anything to do with the capability of the facility. They're also usually private facilities, so frankly they're under no more obligation to treat someone for free than you are.  They sent him to the ER.

I'd give it the ole 48 hour rule for factual reporting in the media.

 

[dogears]

And he didn't follow that either.  
I am aware the Feds haven't shut anything down.  They also haven't provided much leadership, guidance, consistency or coordination for the states.  As Jay Inslee pointed out, the quarterbacking from DC has been second string at best.

"Facts not Opinions"

To make this claim, you'd need to actually read the documents the NSC say they're following, then read the 2016 plan, then provide factual reporting on the differences, and factual reporting on whether or not the Federal Government is actually following those documents.

That would be a news article I'd like to read. Til then we get useless partisan sniping that actually gives the reader no actionable information, just accusations and opinions.  :

 

[hodad]

"Facts not Opinions"

I did a quick skim of the things you linked.  The flu PDF was pretty light & fluffy.  The COVID PDF was better--a little late to the party, considering there was that plan from 2016 that could have provided a very useful outline from day 1.  The Bioterror thing had more to do with bioterror than garden variety pandemics, from what i could tell. 

So maybe there was something more "up to date" in place, in the sense that it was created more recently.  That doesn't make it a better plan--just more up to date. 

If I go from empirical evidence--Trump's words and deeds, and his management of the crisis--I'd be hard pressed to say any plan, up to date or otherwise, was being followed with any consistency or regularity. 
Facts:  Trump's public pronouncements underestimated the gravity of the situation, were self-contradictory, were littered with misstatements, exaggerations, falsehoods, and "hunches."  The federal response and guidance lagged behind many cities, states, medical facilities, businesses, sports teams, etc. 

 

[Whoops]

\ Y'all in Europe may not know this but these places are typically small facilities with a couple of exam rooms. They can treat minor emergencies when normal doctors offices are closed, but they're not like an actual emergency room. A lot of them don't even have a physician there all the time - mostly if you go they will be staffed by a nurse practitioner. "Urgent care" is billed at a different rate than "Emergency care" and different again than a normal doctor's visit.  It doesn't have anything to do with the capability of the facility. They're also usually private facilities, so frankly they're under no more obligation to treat someone for free than you are.  They sent him to the ER.

Thanks for explaining that.

So is ER public? can anyone be treated there or can the ER refuse people without Health Insurance?

What are the solutions in the US for all these people "Roughly 27.5 million Americans—8.5 percent of the population—don’t have health insurance based on the latest government figures." ?

 

[dogears]

I did a quick skim of the things you linked.  The flu PDF was pretty light & fluffy.  The COVID PDF was better--a little late to the party, considering there was that plan from 2016 that could have provided a very useful outline from day 1.  The Bioterror thing had more to do with bioterror than garden variety pandemics, from what i could tell. 

So maybe there was something more "up to date" in place, in the sense that it was created more recently.  That doesn't make it a better plan--just more up to date. 

If I go from empirical evidence--Trump's words and deeds, and his management of the crisis--I'd be hard pressed to say any plan, up to date or otherwise, was being followed with any consistency or regularity. 
Facts:  Trump's public pronouncements underestimated the gravity of the situation, were self-contradictory, were littered with misstatements, exaggerations, falsehoods, and "hunches."  The federal response and guidance lagged behind many cities, states, medical facilities, businesses, sports teams, etc.

So basically, from a facts perspective the article was useless, right? Other than actually telling us that there was an old plan, and it was superseded by new plans. And since you haven't read the 2016 plan, you don't know if it was light and fluffy too, correct?

So we don't actually know if there would have a been any different actions taken if they followed the 2016 plan?

And we don't know when the first COVID19 specific plan was generated and implemented, right? So we don't actually know if it was late to the party or not.

And then we can probably agree that the US government which mostly consists of career professional public servants isn't following a plan scribbled in crayon... because the President doesn't actually make these plans...right?

And so we are back to your opinions about what you infer is happening based on how you see Pres. Trump behaving and speaking on twitter, and your perception from the media. Which brings the entire thing back to the article, full circle.

 

[dogears]

Thanks for explaining that.

So is ER public? can anyone be treated there or can the ER refuse people without Health Insurance?

What are the solutions in the US for all these people "Roughly 27.5 million Americans—8.5 percent of the population—don’t have health insurance based on the latest government figures." ?

Some ERs are public and some are private. However, nearly every hospital in the US accepts federally funded medical programs (medicare, medicaid) and that makes them legally obligated to provide emergency service to any person who comes in. An ER cannot turn a person away for inability to pay... they don't even have to make it in the door. In the parking lot or on the campus of the hospital counts.

Some people who are uninsured simply have young-and-dumb-itis and don't see the value in health insurance. When they get sick, they have to either pay out of pocket or go to the ER. Some can't afford it, but there are government subsidized plans in place in every state.  And some people are super rich and basically self-insure.  At any rate, that kid didn't die because of evil healthcare system.

 

[Matador]

The president isn't the government. That's why you don't see much of anything change in US policy from administration to administration. Especially big ticket stuff, foreign policy, etc.

The President can set the tone and give urgency when needed.

It seems clear that President Deals has treated this situation as one of damage control and protecting his brand rather than actually  substantively helping to resolve the situation.  For example, rather than helping people on a cruise ship experiencing 'flu-like' symptoms he said, "I don’t need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn’t our fault" so the ship was denied port. 

It's also amusing to see what a house of cards our supposed 'economy is the best it's ever been'  is built upon, where a few weeks of lost work from which trillions of stimulus is required to recover.  A significant percentage of workers and small businesses are existing paycheck to paycheck (or order to order) causing a massive spike in unemployment claims. 

The best it's ever been indeed.

 

[dogears]

Agreed, and I think President Trump's early comments were way off base. I think he's gotten quite a bit better... seems to me like many Americans he didn't appreciate the severity of the situation early on.

On the other hand, I think suggesting he hasn't substantively helped resolve the situation is kind of ridiculous. I don't think any president wouldn't work as hard as they could for the optimal outcome (lives + economic)...not because I think they're any of them necessarily good people, but because in this case outcomes and incentives are very nicely aligned. Screwing this up is a straight ticket out of office.

There is no economy in the world which could endure a rapid reduction in consumer spending as what we're going through right now without extreme consequences. If that's the measuring stick for a "good" economy, I don't think you're going to find one out there.

 

[hodad]

So basically, from a facts perspective the article was useless, right?

You sure do a lot of dancing to get around to what you want to believe, don't you?  And a lot of ignoring the evidence that is staring you straight in the face.  You make a lot of assumptions that things must be better than they appear, because that suits your ideology. 

Now, if you had read the Michael Lewis article I linked to, you'd realize that a lot of institutional knowledge (you know, the kind that makes up pandemic plans) was lost when Trump stepped in.  (Also, if you noticed, for instance, the brain drain in the Ag Dept. when they told researchers to transfer to the middle of nowhere or take a hike.)  And if you paid attention to his political hires you'd realize that a lot of them are vastly underqualified as well--and few stick around long enough to gain much on-the-job experience either. 

So yeah, I'd say your expectations of competence from the Trump administration are grossly optimistic.  Between the loss of experienced people and the quality of the political appointees, I find it unreasonable to expect performance that measures up to past administrations, be they Democratic or Republican.

 

[dogears]

Funny that sticking to facts and avoiding conjecture is dancing around.

Back to the fake story about the NSC reorg? Didn't that already get cleared up as a big fib on this thread?

Whatever dude, you're welcome to your opinions but not your own facts.  I prefer to deal in things that are objective.