Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz Report

[iomegaman]

I'm pretty sure by now that the release of the actual IG report will be a nothing burger though...

There will probably be SOMETHING that was done wrong...but not anything to discredit the actual function of the FBI/CIA process...in other words someone may have fudged some paper-work or perhaps violated some bureaucracy red tape but the BASIS for the investigations that were done on Russia and Trump will remain substantially verified...

Those are very large machines to move around...an investigation into a Presidential campaign is not a "Hey run down to the supply closet and grab a post note" sort of event...Carter Page was ALREADY under investigation...

Misfud was never anything but an academic who got played...

I am really amazed at how many people seem to be unwilling to admit that the Russians are lying and always have been...

It's not hard.

Anyone involved with Russia accepts lying as part of the equation and that stuff gets all over you like squid ink.

Truth matters. Now more than ever.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm pretty sure by now that the release of the actual IG report will be a nothing burger though...

There will probably be SOMETHING that was done wrong...but not anything to discredit the actual function of the FBI/CIA process...in other words someone may have fudged some paper-work or perhaps violated some bureaucracy red tape but the BASIS for the investigations that were done on Russia and Trump will remain substantially verified...

Those are very large machines to move around...an investigation into a Presidential campaign is not a "Hey run down to the supply closet and grab a post note" sort of event...Carter Page was ALREADY under investigation...

Misfud was never anything but an academic who got played...

I am really amazed at how many people seem to be unwilling to admit that the Russians are lying and always have been...

It's not hard.

Anyone involved with Russia accepts lying as part of the equation and that stuff gets all over you like squid ink.

Truth matters. Now more than ever.

It is pointless to argue now... the IG report is expected soon, Dec 9th or something like that. There are no indictments in IG reports, if any they would come from the DOJ after reviewing the IG report results (none have been leaked or telegraphed).

The ongoing Durham investigation, OTOH has been changed to a criminal investigation, suggesting they have identified criminal behavior. 

The IG report is expected to reveal serious misbehavior, but no criminal indictments (AFAIK). The Durham investigation could have much more significant implications for the swamp creatures (like possible jail time).

Again try to be patient, the results will come out in good time.

JR

 

[iomegaman]

So the report is out, and it seems like all that fuss over "illegal" wiretaps turns out to be a nothing burger, not only that but Ivanka apparently asked Steele to work for them and is on good terms with the author of the Steele Dossier...

The thing I am finding incredibly un-American is the way Barr is now trying to paint the report as damning when in fact it says the opposite...

Read it and weep Qanon.

 

[iomegaman]

If its TLDR; here ya go bullet points (with page numbers from report)

Here are the key findings from the report:

1. We concluded that, under the AG Guidelines and the DIOG, the FBI had an authorized purpose when it opened Crossfire Hurricane to obtain information about, or to protect against, a national security threat or federal crime, even though the investigation also had the potential to impact constitutionally protected activity. (p 347)

2. We found that the FBI opened the Crossfire Hurricane investigation shortly after officials in CD received the FFG information on July 28. The opening EC documented the pertinent FFG information verbatim and described relevant background information. All of the senior FBI officials who participated in the discussions about whether to open a case told us the information from the FFG warranted investigation. (p 348)

3. We did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced Priestap's decision to open Crossfire Hurricane. ...

The evidence also showed that FBI officials responsible for and involved in the case opening decisions were unanimous in their belief that, together with the July 2016 release by WikiLeaks of hacked DNC emails, the Papadopoulos statement described in the FFG information reflected the Russian government's potential next step to interfere with the 2016 U.S. elections.

These FBI officials were similarly unanimous in their belief that the FFG information represented a threat to national security that warranted further investigation by the FBI. Witnesses told us that they did not recall observing during these discussions any instances or indications of improper motivations or political bias on the part of the participants, including Strzok. (p 349-50)

4. We therefore concluded the FBI met the requirement in the AG Guidelines and the DIOG that Crossfire Hurricane be opened for an "authorized purpose," namely "to detect, obtain information about, or prevent or protect against federal crimes or threats to the national security or to collect foreign intelligence." (p 350)

Link to report itself

 

[JohnRoberts]

So the report is out, and it seems like all that fuss over "illegal" wiretaps turns out to be a nothing burger, not only that but Ivanka apparently asked Steele to work for them and is on good terms with the author of the Steele Dossier...

The thing I am finding incredibly un-American is the way Barr is now trying to paint the report as damning when in fact it says the opposite...

Read it and weep Qanon.

I had to search Qanon to see what you were talking about...  : Some more time I will not get back.

As expected there are no criminal indictments from this report. As usual for this political environment it will be a partisan ink blot test where both sides will see different things.

I just downloaded a copy and at more than 400 pages I am impressed that you can already opine about it.

I expect a marathon session of partisan spinners (from both parties) on TV trying to tell us what to think. Do not be sheeple.

https://www.oversight.gov/sites/default/files/oig-reports/120919-examination.pdf  Here is a link to the report.

Enjoy...  I expect the (criminal) Durham investigation to have more fireworks, but Durham is already publicly criticizing some of the IG report conclusions.

Please try to be open minded and draw your own conclusions. (don't listen to me...  ).

JR

 

[iomegaman]

I read through it, and if you look I also provided a link...and I also provided page numbers to reference the points that were made.

Of course I did not read it all and neither will you or anyone else, but there are ways to get at the substance of it if you try.

You said:

"At the same time US Attorney John Durham's probe into the origins of the Russian investigation has reportedly shifted to a criminal investigation (because of evidence uncovered), expanding their ability to call witnesses, impanel a grand jury and file criminal charges."

Nothing in the report I read indicated anything of this sort, so if Durhams probe has gone "criminal" it is not based on anything the IG found...

If you are under the impression that Barr and Durham are NOT weaponizing the DOJ maybe you should open your eyes...currently they have been trying to get an investigation int Biden and his son based purely on conjecture with no corraborating witnesses except a fired corrupt Ukrainian political hack with connections to Russian corruption.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I read through it, and if you look I also provided a link...and I also provided page numbers to reference the points that were made.

Of course I did not read it all and neither will you or anyone else, but there are ways to get at the substance of it if you try.

You said:

"At the same time US Attorney John Durham's probe into the origins of the Russian investigation has reportedly shifted to a criminal investigation (because of evidence uncovered), expanding their ability to call witnesses, impanel a grand jury and file criminal charges."

Nothing in the report I read indicated anything of this sort, so if Durhams probe has gone "criminal" it is not based on anything the IG found...

duh... The Durham investigation is not based on the IG investigation, it is separate and independent.  The IG investigation was limited in scope to just the narrow question of FISA warrants. Durham (a US attorney based in CT)  was tasked with digging deeper than the IG could into misbehavior by intelligence community against the Trump campaign, and later President Trump. .

The Durham investigation shifted to "criminal" based on evidence they received a few months ago (in Italy, UK, etc).

If you are under the impression that Barr and Durham are NOT weaponizing the DOJ maybe you should open your eyes...

both sides are pushing the envelope of constitutional powers. My eyes have been open a long time.

currently they have been trying to get an investigation int Biden and his son based purely on conjecture with no corroborating witnesses except a fired corrupt Ukrainian political hack with connections to Russian corruption.

Seriously... Hunter Biden got dragged into this when the Dems tried to make this about the Ukraine. BTW If you want to defend Biden's son he is all yours.

I posted right here months ago that Ukraine was a known cesspool for corruption, well before Hunter Biden surfaced into the news cycle.  The younger Biden is not important other than as an example of typical swamp politics and influence pedaling.

JR

 

[iomegaman]

I'm sorry I don't buy into the "Deep state" bullshit...

Barrs HANDPICKED Inspector General found no bias and nothing to suggest the investigations were not properly authorised or that standard protocol (other than a few filing issues) was deviated from.

And now Barr is disagreeing with his own handpicked staff...at what point do you stop the bullshit and admit that Barr is NOT the AG, he is Trumps personal lawyer interfering with justice?

 

[Recording Engineer]

Seriously... Hunter Biden got dragged into this when the Dems tried to make this about the Ukraine. BTW If you want to defend Biden's son he is all yours.

I posted right here months ago that Ukraine was a known cesspool for corruption, well before Hunter Biden surfaced into the news cycle.  The younger Biden is not important other than as an example of typical swamp politics and influence pedaling.

JR

No one needs to defend Hunter Biden (or Joe for that matter) so far. Graham is starting his investigation of him to pacify Trump and his supporters, something he’s been known to do on a number of occasions, in a number of scenarios. I’ve yet to see or even heard anything else that would indicate otherwise. Maybe the origins of that investigation will need to be investigated, depending on the outcome... Too can play that game and can just go round and round.

Trump hasn’t needed anyone to defend him up to this point either. Still, there certainly has already been an awful lot of money spent on lawyer time and lawsuits to slowdown and derail  investigations of such an innocent man.

However, I have a feeling Trump will extremely-soon need a defense though, and I still don’t see how this is anything other than a “look, everyone else does it” kind of a defense.

By the way, I don’t understand how this investigation of origins of the investigation is anything more than a desperate legal strategy for appeals or in hopes of getting cases thrown out or convictions overturned; possibly even as defense for cases to come, to show their state-of-mind, to justify whatever they may end-up being charged with, as if they did it for the sake of the national and not personal agendas..

But as said before, maybe this investigation of the origins of the investigation will turn  up something not good for some unheard of players. Or not. Who know. Either way, I’m all for it, but I can guarantee it won’t reveal some deep-state conspiracy against Trump, if that is what anyone is hoping. It’s actually not surprising though, Trump is certainly narcissistic enough to truly believe that whole-heartedly. With that being the most-likely case, as best I can see, it really does justify the case of removing him for mental-health reasons.

 

[iomegaman]

A handful of things that HAVE come out of it is that Ivanka was pretty cozy with Christopher Steel since 2008 and there were more than few FBI agents that are full on MAGA tweeters who hated Hillary...so in some ways all the projection done by the Trump supporters and accusations of bias in the FBI are kinda true except backwards.

 

[Recording Engineer]

That’s always the interesting thing to me... My favorite is the charity organizations. After Trump’s accusations, investigations were done, and one got shut-down. The other is still going! Nothing like shooting yourself in the foot!

 

[hodad]

The ongoing Durham investigation, OTOH has been changed to a criminal investigation, suggesting they have identified criminal behavior. 

Always putting your eggs in the next basket, always moving goalposts.  The essence of the modern Republican party. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Always putting your eggs in the next basket, always moving goalposts.  The essence of the modern Republican party.

I am putting my eggs in the Nov 2020 election, now less than 11 months away.

===

Abuse of power and obstruction of congress....?  not exactly high crimes and misdemeanors.  :  Congress and the executive are co-equal branches under the constitution and executive power is often used to push back against congressional over reach. Abuse of power is not defined by the constitution. Good luck with those charges.

I did not vote for then candidate Trump in the primary, but now I am looking forward to 2020. I hate to predict elections (I expected Hillary to win), but this time I would not be surprised by a message from voters to congress to stop wasting time and money. 

===

Maybe the house can now get back to the people's work, they only have a few work days left this year to ratify the pending trade deals (MCA, Japan, etc), and keep the government funded (their actual job is budgets and spending). 

JR

 

[Bo Deadly]

Truth and equality are what makes the US different from many countries. The Republicans are clearly NOT at all interested in the truth, equality or the "people's work". They are only interested in clinging to power because they sense that they're becoming a minority. It is sad and disturbing to see good smart people rationalize away what they once claimed to be so important. Eventually the Republicans are going to loose power and I fear the whiplash is going to be unforgiving.

 

[iomegaman]

I am putting my eggs in the Nov 2020 election, now less than 11 months away.

===

Abuse of power and obstruction of congress....?  not exactly high crimes and misdemeanors.  :  Congress and the executive are co-equal branches under the constitution and executive power is often used to push back against congressional over reach. Abuse of power is not defined by the constitution. Good luck with those charges.

I did not vote for then candidate Trump in the primary, but now I am looking forward to 2020. I hate to predict elections (I expected Hillary to win), but this time I would not be surprised by a message from voters to congress to stop wasting time and money. 

===

Maybe the house can now get back to the people's work, they only have a few work days left this year to ratify the pending trade deals (MCA, Japan, etc), and keep the government funded (their actual job is budgets and spending). 

JR

John I don't take you for someone who does not read, but what exactly do you think asking a foreign government for help in an election SHOULD be called?

If you believe that the executive and congress are co-equal branches then I suppose you do NOT support Trump ignoring subpoenas from congress? What would that be called?

The evidence is pretty clear that Trump used his office as POTUS to get a "favor" from Ukraine, or at minimum the promise of a favor performed and he withheld vital aid in the process...then commanding his entire staff to NOT co-operate with a lawful Congressional investigation seems to be ok?

just because no one has obstructed on this level before does not mean its ok and not a big deal...without congressional oversight of the executive the POTUS becomes a king.

Here's what I don't get from people who seem to support Trump (in spite of not voting for him?)...

EVERYTHING Trump has done benefits Vladimir Putins agenda at the cost of national security, there has never been a more Putin supporting Official in the executive than we have now...if anyone has half a brain and cares to do a small amount of research it becomes obviously clear that the majority of the GOP is in full support of Putins strategies and agendas and Trump is his number #1 lacky...from withholding critical aid to a country Russia is invading, to Syris to sanctions to election security etc...everything Trump has done leads back to Moscow's benefit...

When did supporting a murderous and mafia world leader became part of our primary national policy?

And don't throw out some bullshiut that we've always been this way, ti just is a smoke screen for the current love affair with a murdering regime...(and yes you can throw Saudi Arabis in here becaus e bone saw Saudia is just as corrupt)...

I have hope for democracy...I think it is not perfect but its the best chance we've got in todays world, and the GOP and Trump are NOT moving democracy forward they are moving forward a nationalism reminiscent of 1939 Germany...

Steven Miller is an open white supporting racist...the GOP has become the party of white old men clutching at power...

I was a card carrying republican and voted red my entire life but the party is about as diverse and a box of saltines these days...it is clutching at old white power and no longer espouses democratic and fair elections as the way to operate things...

I'm done here.

Anyone who see's a hidden conspiracy behind the IG report and there will be some great new truth and exposure to come out is full of gas.

 

[pucho812]

Ah but did trump really do those things? According to sounland(SP?) it was his opinion that  trump wanted  something in return, but yet when asked in the congressional hearing "did trump want a quid pro quo?" he said no, that trump was clear he didn't want anything in return, that he would want them to do the right thing.  I'm sorry I can't see any testimony from the witnesses that proves anything, they either didn't witness or contradicted themselves. Another political ink blot test I reckon.  At the end of the day I would really like to know what power he has been abusing?  I would like to know how he obstructed congress who has not really done any business. I would also like to know why they were so sure of collusion, obstruction of justice, bribery and extortion that they didn't even bother to include them  in the impeachment? clearly those would fall under high crimes and misdemeanors.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Abuse of power and obstruction of congress....?  not exactly high crimes and misdemeanors.  :  Congress and the executive are co-equal branches under the constitution and executive power is often used to push back against congressional over reach. Abuse of power is not defined by the constitution. Good luck with those charges.

JR

Everyone knows that is a convenient, politically-biased assessment and no doubt would be completely opposite if it were on the other foot. It has become an “in the eyes of the beholder” issue. The bi-partisan stance should definitely be: Clearly this is wrong and should be illegal if it truly is not already! We need clear legislation as quickly as possible, in order to spell it out and prevent attorney-maneuverings, as it has become here!

 

[Recording Engineer]

Ah but did trump really do those things? According to sounland(SP?) it was his opinion that  trump wanted  something in return, but yet when asked in the congressional hearing "did trump want a quid pro quo?" he said no, that trump was clear he didn't want anything in return, that he would want them to do the right thing.  I'm sorry I can't see any testimony from the witnesses that proves anything, they either didn't witness or contradicted themselves. Another political ink blot test I reckon.  At the end of the day I would really like to know what power he has been abusing?  I would like to know how he obstructed congress who has not really done any business. I would also like to know why they were so sure of collusion, obstruction of justice, bribery and extortion that they didn't even bother to include them  in the impeachment? clearly those would fall under high crimes and misdemeanors.

Well that’s what the actual Senate trial is for. The prosecution has the burdened of proof.  Is there enough evidence to remove him? Even if there is, will they actually vote based on the evidence presented or with political-angling?

Is there enough evidence to prosecute him when he’s out of office? Will anyone, even if there is?

But to actually think he didn’t do what he’s accused of, in multiple-directions... Hmmm...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Everyone knows that is a convenient, politically-biased assessment and no doubt would be completely opposite if it were on the other foot.

Everybody?

It has become an “in the eyes of the beholder” issue.

indeed...

The bi-partisan stance should definitely be: Clearly this is wrong and should be illegal if it truly is not already! We need clear legislation as quickly as possible, in order to spell it out and prevent attorney-maneuverings, as it has become here!

Exactly... Impeachment should be bipartisan, and past ones were. This time there is only one party supporting impeachment.

Further you cannot punish any citizen for things that "should be illegal" that is common law  ( for today's latin lesson, search "ex post facto" ). The constitution specifically prohibits ex post facto prosecution in two articles.

If the opposition party can unilaterally impeach a president for whatever charges they can make up, governing in the future could get pretty difficult (imagine your shoes on the other foot example if this behavior is tolerated).  The republic is based on three co-equal branches, to serve as checks and balances on each other. There are rules and precedent, this one playing out is unprecedented. 

JR 

PS: This is pretty off topic wrt IG report.

 

[JohnRoberts]

John I don't take you for someone who does not read,

You can stop the vague inferred ad hominem right now...

but what exactly do you think asking a foreign government for help in an election SHOULD be called?

fake news

If you believe that the executive and congress are co-equal branches then I suppose you do NOT support Trump ignoring subpoenas from congress? What would that be called?

Executive privilege.  Congress can sue to have the 3rd co-equal branch adjudicate the dispute, but that would not fit their political theater time window. Any court cases would stretch into next year and that does not work for them. They have the lights and cameras set up now, to capture campaign sound bites. 

The evidence is pretty clear that Trump used his office as POTUS to get a "favor" from Ukraine, or at minimum the promise of a favor performed and he withheld vital aid in the process...then commanding his entire staff to NOT co-operate with a lawful Congressional investigation seems to be ok?

Of course this is all more complicated than that, and if there was any real there there, this Ukraine kerfuffle would be an article of impeachment. It isn't so you do the math. 

just because no one has obstructed on this level before does not mean its ok and not a big deal...without congressional oversight of the executive the POTUS becomes a king.

the executive is also checked by the courts (three co-equal branches).

Here's what I don't get from people who seem to support Trump (in spite of not voting for him?)...

EVERYTHING Trump has done benefits Vladimir Putins agenda at the cost of national security, there has never been a more Putin supporting Official in the executive than we have now...if anyone has half a brain and cares to do a small amount of research it becomes obviously clear that the majority of the GOP is in full support of Putins strategies and agendas and Trump is his number #1 lacky...from withholding critical aid to a country Russia is invading, to Syris to sanctions to election security etc...everything Trump has done leads back to Moscow's benefit...

Opinions vary. People with a longer view of middle east history recognize the potential for Syria to become a quagmire. President Trump eliminated the IS caliphate and significantly diminished their ability to recruit and strike the west. After doing that he is fulfilling a campaign promise to bring soldiers home.

Speaking of Syria/IS I just read where Turkey is repatriating captured european IS fighters back to their home countries in the west where they will likely escape prosecution due to lack of hard evidence. So expect more mischief from these radicalized individuals. Turkey as a NATO member is trying to play EU against Putin, but that cannot be tolerated (we actually have strategic nuclear weapons based in Turkey). If Turkey embraces russian anti aircraft systems that will compromise the security of US fighter aircraft there. 

When did supporting a murderous and mafia world leader became part of our primary national policy?

it is not.

And don't throw out some bullshiut that we've always been this way, ti just is a smoke screen for the current love affair with a murdering regime...(and yes you can throw Saudi Arabis in here becaus e bone saw Saudia is just as corrupt)...

International relations make strange bed fellows. The Saudis were considered a lesser evil while their oil reserves were important to the west. As we continue to increase our energy output (almost a net exporter now) the importance of relations with the Saudis becomes less leveraged to energy.

I have hope for democracy...I think it is not perfect but its the best chance we've got in todays world, and the GOP and Trump are NOT moving democracy forward they are moving forward a nationalism reminiscent of 1939 Germany...

this seems a little hyperbolic.  (BTW we are a republic not a simple democracy... lynch mobs are democracies).

Steven Miller is an open white supporting racist...the GOP has become the party of white old men clutching at power...

I am not even going to search out who that is... you seem to be ranting.

I was a card carrying republican and voted red my entire life but the party is about as diverse and a box of saltines these days...it is clutching at old white power and no longer espouses democratic and fair elections as the way to operate things...

I'm done here.

promises promises.

Anyone who see's a hidden conspiracy behind the IG report and there will be some great new truth and exposure to come out is full of gas.

ending on a straw man...punctuated by another insult.

good work, I hope your day gets better from here.

JR