Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz Report

[Recording Engineer]

Everybody? indeed...Exactly... Impeachment should be bipartisan, and past ones were. This time there is only one party supporting impeachment.

Further you cannot punish any citizen for things that "should be illegal" that is common law  ( for today's latin lesson, search "ex post facto" ). The constitution specifically prohibits ex post facto prosecution in two articles.

If the opposition party can unilaterally impeach a president for whatever charges they can make up, governing in the future could get pretty difficult (imagine your shoes on the other foot example if this behavior is tolerated).  The republic is based on three co-equal branches, to serve as checks and balances on each other. There are rules and precedent, this one playing out is unprecedented. 

JR 

PS: This is pretty off topic wrt IG report.

Everybody, not politically-angling.

And to think impeachments of the pasts weren’t also of political-angling, in-part...

But I wasn’t speaking on impeachment being bipartisan anyhow. I was talking bipartisan responses to the accusations. Instead, it’s partisan attacks and political and legal-anglings.

And of course you can’t punish someone of what should be illegal. That’s obviously not anything I’ve remotely suggested either.

Yes off-topic to IG Report, but that’s a natural progression of reasonable conversation.

 

[dmp]

The complete non-cooperation of Trump with Congress is blatant obstruction of Congress.
Trump directed everyone to ignore subpoenas and not show up. Making the Republican's claims that the story is incomplete a strange defense.

It was clear from testimony that Trump wanted Ukraine to announce an investigation into Biden, which is exactly the kind of info Trump could weaponize through the next year, the same way he exploited Hillary's email "scandal" up to 2016.  Even though Ukraine did not do this, extortion / bribery does not need to be effective to be a crime.
Trump only made his no quid pro quo call to Sondland after the whistleblower came to light.

Interference in the USA political system was one of the things the founders feared the most while drafting the Constitution. 

The damage done by Trump and the GOP to the United States is truly incredible. 

 

[hodad]

You can stop the vague inferred ad hominem right now...
JR

Doesn't it ever bother you (not to single you out, because I see it a lot with Republicans) that as a putative stickler for logic (so many ad hominem/straw man/whataboutism comments from right wingers), you are spending so much time defending a man who publicly commits logical fallacies literally daily, and usually numerous times daily? 

I think about Louisiana's John Kennedy, for whom I used to have a grudging respect, contorting himself to support whatever cockamamie conspiracy theory Trump is spouting on a given day.  Or Lindsey Graham, who in the face of empirical evidence contradicting his statement in support of Trump, can only retort, "Well, you're entitled to your opinion." 

Aeren't you guys tired of the humiliation and embarrassment of supporting this lying buffoon, this two-bit grifter, this mass of contradictions, petty crime and bullying?  Aren't you  tired yet of seeing your own beloved GOP turned into a cesspool of bigotry and self-enrichment?

Will there ever c ome a point where you say "enough is enough" and begin to strive to reclaim your dignity, your honor and your party? 

 

[Recording Engineer]

I think the bottom line is, they are saying that that’s all ok because he was voted in, everyone does what he’s been doing, and site legal-angles for justification.

Get him next round. They’ve said it from day one and will continue, regardless of absolutely anything. It’s simply the partisan politics game as usual... Unless they’re really in crazy-land, right there next to Trump himself!

 

[Matador]

What would be really delicious is for the next Dem president on day one to announce:  "China, for every confirmed bit of dirt you can dig up on my GOP opponents I will reduce tariffs by 1%!"  Then watch the GOP implode as they try to thread the needle of why it's wrong after 1 million man-hours of video where they shouted the opposite.

I also think the Dem's should gerrymander the sh*t out of California and Virginia now while they can, to guarantee no possibility of GOP control in those states in perpetuity going forward.

 

[iomegaman]

I get that that would be delicious, for a democratic president to come on the scene and do everything we've complained about Trump doing, but it would also be poisonous...I still have hopes for democracy to move humanity forward, right now it is struggling to do so.

If its wrong for Trump its wrong for anyone to do that.

The facts are laid out in an indictment against 12 GRU officials, 13 Russian nationals, and 3 Russian companies filed in federal court, and Pompeo stood with a Minister of Russia today while they clearly proclaimed in public that Russia did not interfere in the 2016 election...IN SPITE OF THE FACTS TO THE CONTRARY.

BILL BARR said under oath that he believed the FBI spied upon Trump, and then he appointed a hand picked IG to investigate and when the report came out that no, the FBI did not spy on Trump Barr doubled down.

These people no longer deserve ANY respect.

Anyone supporting them deserves less.

 

[pucho812]

I also think the Dem's should gerrymander the sh*t out of California and Virginia now while they can, to guarantee no possibility of GOP control in those states in perpetuity going forward.

Yes they should, it's been working so well for us here in the golden state. Can Shit  and piss wherever you like,  can live on the street with no repercussions, and basically can do whatever you want because hey it's cool. Yeah it's really working out, it's why so many are leaving.  The constant control by any singular party for prolonged periods does not end well.  plenty examples of that. choose wisely.

 

[Recording Engineer]

I get that that would be delicious, for a democratic president to come on the scene and do everything we've complained about Trump doing, but it would also be poisonous...I still have hopes for democracy to move humanity forward, right now it is struggling to do so.

If its wrong for Trump its wrong for anyone to do that.

The facts are laid out in an indictment against 12 GRU officials, 13 Russian nationals, and 3 Russian companies filed in federal court, and Pompeo stood with a Minister of Russia today while they clearly proclaimed in public that Russia did not interfere in the 2016 election...IN SPITE OF THE FACTS TO THE CONTRARY.

BILL BARR said under oath that he believed the FBI spied upon Trump, and then he appointed a hand picked IG to investigate and when the report came out that no, the FBI did not spy on Trump Barr doubled down.

These people no longer deserve ANY respect.

Anyone supporting them deserves less.

Right. And anyone without an agenda should be able to say straight-up, right away, with that all these things and people going down all-around Trump, doesn’t happen without Trump’s involvement on some level, and is certainly not a deep-state conspiracy-theory against Trump.

 

[Matador]

Trump supporters aren't going to believe any of it.  It's just 'fake news'.  It's a total waste of time to even debate it.  Whether or not the Senate convicts doesn't really matter.  100% of the focus should be gaining a majority in the Senate.  The Presidency is icing on the cake, but without the Senate McConnell will just block 100% of any Democratic legislation until they are voted out.

Because really the only issue left in the short term is making sure that Trump cannot appoint another Federalist Society hack onto the Supreme court, especially given the state of RBG's health.  If Trump wins and she is replaced, we can kiss goodbye any sort of forward movement in the country for the better part of the next generation or two.

 

[JohnRoberts]

this sputem is exactly why I prefer audio electronics to governance... 100% objective (or it is when done properly). No debate about how many coulombs per second in an ampere.

Argue among yourselves...

JR

 

[hodad]

Argue among yourselves...

JR

While the study of human behavior is certainly not as cut and dried as the study of electronics, it's certainly possible to predict future behavior by studying past behavior--not 100% accurate, of course.  But it's what we have as humans to guide our interactions with one another, both on micro and macro levels. 

Matador's prediction of potential future GOP behavior ('What would be really delicious is for the next Dem president on day one to announce:  "China, for every confirmed bit of dirt you can dig up on my GOP opponents I will reduce tariffs by 1%!"  Then watch the GOP implode as they try to thread the needle of why it's wrong after 1 million man-hours of video where they shouted the opposite.' ) is based on past performance of the people involved.  There's a solid track record of exactly this sort of behavior over tha last 20 years. 

And yet, most GOPers are unwilling even to entertain the notion of their party's hypocrisy and double standards.  They refuse to weigh their own party's past performance in considering what it might do in the future, and they certainly show no signs of changing direction in the present based on an acknowledgement of past performance.

To hide behind the inexactitude of our studies of human behavior is weak sauce:  as noted, we all use predictions of human behavior every day, whether it's while driving down a congested highway, or buying stocks, or pulling a lever in a voting booth.  Or even in deciding how to word a post to a DIY list.

It's maddening, as often happens with Trump's GOP, when a rightie stares at a pile of facts and says, "These are not facts."  That makes any rational discussion near impossible.  It's almost amusing to see them run away when a mirror is held up to their own hypocrisy, or when confronted with the demonstrable falsehoods they've premised their beliefs on. 

It's almost funny.  But it's not. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

While the study of human behavior is certainly not as cut and dried as the study of electronics, it's certainly possible to predict future behavior by studying past behavior--not 100% accurate, of course.  But it's what we have as humans to guide our interactions with one another, both on micro and macro levels. 

Matador's prediction of potential future GOP behavior ('What would be really delicious is for the next Dem president on day one to announce:  "China, for every confirmed bit of dirt you can dig up on my GOP opponents I will reduce tariffs by 1%!"  Then watch the GOP implode as they try to thread the needle of why it's wrong after 1 million man-hours of video where they shouted the opposite.' ) is based on past performance of the people involved.  There's a solid track record of exactly this sort of behavior over tha last 20 years. 

And yet, most GOPers are unwilling even to entertain the notion of their party's hypocrisy and double standards.  They refuse to weigh their own party's past performance in considering what it might do in the future, and they certainly show no signs of changing direction in the present based on an acknowledgement of past performance.

To hide behind the inexactitude of our studies of human behavior is weak sauce:  as noted, we all use predictions of human behavior every day, whether it's while driving down a congested highway, or buying stocks, or pulling a lever in a voting booth.  Or even in deciding how to word a post to a DIY list.

It's maddening, as often happens with Trump's GOP, when a rightie stares at a pile of facts and says, "These are not facts."  That makes any rational discussion near impossible.  It's almost amusing to see them run away when a mirror is held up to their own hypocrisy, or when confronted with the demonstrable falsehoods they've premised their beliefs on. 

It's almost funny.  But it's not.

I won't address the new straw men you added.

I find politics disgusting but interesting because it has corrupted almost every aspect of our everyday life. Kind of like that old poker joke, if you don't know who the sucker is in the poker game, you are the sucker. I objet to people trying to tell me how to think, but that is almost wall to wall, and getting worse as nov 2020 approaches.

Just a few recent observations about the men and woman behind the curtain trying to push our buttons.

A significant impeachment hearing vote was postponed from late at night until the next morning in an attempt to manage the news cycle (moreTV coverage in the morning). The vote wasn't the most important thing, but spreading the imagery was. When the goal is emotional persuasion we can see blatant manipulations like this. This is not a big deal, but a telling example of manipulation.

Another thing to look for in the poker game of manufacturing political sentiment is timing. Human perception weighs recent events more heavily than older events. You ever notice how the doctor gives kids a lolly pop after they get a painful shot. That way they associate the pleasant treat with the doctor visit, not the needle.  8)

An upcoming example of this to watch for is the timing of the USMCA (canada/mexico trade deal). This was effectively negotiated almost a year ago, but ratification was stalled arguably to deprive the administration of a victory creating even more jobs and economic growth. Now the USMCA has become a high priority to get that in the rear view mirror and let the impeachment drama be the last headline voters see.  :  That is why "October surprises" magically splash just before the November vote.

Of course maybe I'm all wrong about this  :  but if you don't think the political class and media are playing us, you may be the sucker.  Think for yourselves, this is a smarter than average group.

JR

 

[boji]

Speaking generally on the hatred of the current US administration, when did 'I don't know' become such a taboo position to take?  If you've got the feels, and it came from a computer monitor, ask yourself, who's in control?

Analyze the history of atrocity, and the standard lessons of war become superficial: 'Avoid the evil dictator'. 
The nuanced lesson is- should any country's majority (democratic or otherwise) rise to power due to the conviction that their existing government is full of evildoers, they will use that animus to ensure those evildoers never rise to power again by committing greater crimes in the name of 'good'.

We will likely have the least blood on our hands when the winds change if we are not the ones trying to turn the will of the people against something.  "Peace is boring, unfair. I will improve our circumstances."  - Lit/cinema's evil antagonist.

Late edit: due to the conviction that their existing government/citizenry is full of evildoers

 

[Recording Engineer]

It’s all a game and you lose, even if you choose to forfeit by not playing.

This whole war against the media mantra is nothing more than part of playing the game; regardless of some truth in it! This fake news saying all of a sudden being regurgitated over and over again, even by those announcing they’re not a Trump supporter or voter, puts them right in the game (they know it too), just a it was designed.

The I don’t know argument is a legitimate legal one, but anyone saying anything beyond that must still feel OJ is innocent.

I’d say they’re just kidding themselves, but then I’d just be kidding myself!

 

[Tubetec]

I read through this thread every once in a while , and actually despite the vast differences of opinion ,the fact that people feel comfortable voicing their opinions alone makes it very worthwhile reading. 

 

[hodad]

I won't address the new straw men you added.

JR

And I'll ignore your numerous ad hominemns, your haughty dismissal of certain news organs or authors for reasons that have nothing to do with the material at hand, the cases where the core of your argument is shown to be factually inaccurate and yet you continue to argue the point anyway, etc. etc. 

Get off your high horse, champ. 

 

[boji]

forfeit by not playing.

Life of consequence vs life of appreciation.  Many games are won by not playing, because ideology and blindness usually share the same coin, and people go crazy in crowds. History's jam-packed full of this, and if one thinks their philosophy puts them on the right side of history, they are not a true philosopher.

Evil is a seed in everyone's soul, waiting to be watered in the name of something. Politics is shi#e, makes for great soil. 

 

[Recording Engineer]

Many games are won by not playing

Absolutely, but not the politician game..

 

[JohnRoberts]

And I'll ignore your numerous ad hominemns,

Ad hominem against fellow members is against the rules so please advise me of all "my" numerous violations.

If I was making the rules I would also prohibit ad hominem against public figures as that puts us on the slippery slope to wider enmity and crude discourse.

your haughty dismissal of certain news organs

Certain "news" (and I use that term news loosely) outlets are clearly partisan agenda driven... This should be hard to ignore, but perhaps not obvious if you embrace the same agenda.  News should be an objective presentation of fact, not an emotional appeal to manipulate sentiment (I see agendas from talking heads on both sides).

or authors for reasons that have nothing to do with the material at hand,

I don't recall dissing authors (?), I was a little critical of Harari, but still learned a lot from reading his book. I am currently reading Loserthink by Scott Adams and it seems to be full of common sense, that isn't very common in public discussions these days, (including discussions on this forum).

the cases where the core of your argument is shown to be factually inaccurate and yet you continue to argue the point anyway, etc. etc. 

I see lots of subjective opinion declared to be fact... Objective facts are hard to dispute (which is why I prefer electronics to politics.).

Get off your high horse, champ.

I don't think I am pontificating (if that is your inference).  I do not try to change minds which seem pretty hardened. I prefer to  inspect how the men and women behind the curtains are attempting to move the levers to manufacture sentiment (that is what politics is).

I was tempted to list all the evidence of misbehavior in the Horowitz report, but what's the point ? Partisans on both sides are well dug in and not going to be moved by me citing already public information. I have better things to do with my time.

Even Comey finally publicly admitted that he made mistakes (his words not mine), but he waffled that he relied upon the system to catch the multiple errors.

I prefer to look at the inner game being played, not the very public emotional appeals to sway opinion.

JR 

PS: There is no game won by not playing (except perhaps the lottery  ). If you are in a game but do not realize you are competing you are pretty much guaranteed to lose.

 

[Recording Engineer]

I prefer to look at the inner game being played, not the very public emotional appeals to sway opinion.

JR

That’s just the thing... Absolutely,  both sides have and always will play the game. It’s the world we live in and you have to play or you lose and won’t get a chance to accomplish what you truly believe is best as nation and the world... Kinda like a musician selling themself out in order to eventually do exactly what they always wanted.

Until we have enough well-loved popular players on both teams deciding to take one for the team by not playing, and that upsets enough voters to say “we’re fed up with game”, we won’t be making any difference whatsoever!

I just don’t understand how anyone could have thought/ thinks Trump or anyone around him is actually the one to upset the game!!! What makes him different is that he’s so narcissistic that he’s one of the best players we’ve had in a while and that has really excited the fans of the team he plays for.

He’s so good that he can act as a childish king without question on every level and his team fans will somehow defend him to the end, no matter how absurd. Apparently, there’s nothing wrong with that, or people are so deep in the game, even if they can’t admit it to themselves.