El Fito's Homemade Ribbon Mic

[ToobieSnack]

OH ok KitKat ...now I see why it was funny that you received a KitKat with your magnet order...lol...very funny.
how exactly are you getting the foil to seperate from those wrappers?
the cig foil is working great for me ...so far...until i see frequncy readings.

with the high frequencey response on ribbon mics it has been stated that this is a trade of for power.. there is more info at my ribbon mic post and in the metas.

Yoiu can use 2 mics and just fill in what the ribbon does not do well with a condenser mic. this is my plan.. i really like the lows , mids and high mids prodused by a ribbon mic ....he highs ...well...that's a different story. not that it wouldn't be a welcome thing if possible.

thanks for answering one question i had about ribbon tension and frequency response. :grin:

Also DAMN MANNNN....the new interior mounting frame is awesome! now that's beefy......lol.....looks very nice....

OK but....I would have gone a different route on your pigtail...did you see what i did with mine on my first mic project.....the clamp was made using the tab from an electrical replacement receptacle. hehe

or if you jsut shortened it to just the spring ...moiunt from the inside maybe...it jsut seems that to impose that much strain on the cable would defeat the purpose of haveing a strain relief at all.
an L adapter wouild be perfect.

Also: one thing that happened with my mic and may affect yours. is the possible ribbon tension mount misalignment. i had a triangle pull system like you have now...be careful of drops/mechanical shock..with only 3 points of contact for the mechinism you may experience some movement and :shock: ribbon breakage....maybe with 5 points (like two axles and a tow) or hey better yet and an easier modification some flat tabs through you side slots...well as i am rambling throgh my thoughts how about 2 adjust ment screws? (spring loaded of course) it's hard to say without holding it in my hand ...your opinion/diagnosis here is the final statement..just some observation.

hey, did you double stack you magnets? 8 total? 4 per side?
have you compared your output to any other mic?


looking forward to your reply/next post
anway nice to hear of your progress.
post that kit kat foil seperation process....
I have so many things going on at once...
some are very cool and to be announced.....

be ready for a nice suprise coming soon

later
ts

 

[El Fito]

Toobie, the KitKat foil comes just like that, on its own. No separation necessary. Just carefully remove the outer paper sleeve, eat the choc and use the foil as is! Couldn't be any easier.

Re: the sturdiness of the mount, it is all just like a tank mate! No further tweaks there. The magnet adjustment mechanism is super handy for changing ribbons: I just screw them all the way towards the frame, change the ribbon and then screw all the way towards the ribbon until there's a minimal gap, like half a milimeter or less (but it won't really make much difference that close anyway).

As for how many magnets I used, I just used two on either side (4 in total). I guess any more would be overkill as this works just fine and low output is no longer a problem. Soundwise it is beautiful, the only problem being the lack of high end. In terms of volume, I'd say it is probably 1/3 the volume of the Rode K2, which is a super hot mic - I guess that is not bad at all for a ribbon.

Pigtail: there is no strain there now as it has a stopper inside the mic that prevent the cable pulling the trafo's innards out. However, I was lucky enough to snatch a great deal on evil bay yesterday: I got 25 Neutrik panel mounting male XLRs for just over a 10.50 quid including postage! So just because of that, I'll get rid of the pigtail and have a flush mounted XLR connector instead, and then I'll have another 24 to play with! I can see mics aplenty coming your way, people, so watch out!

I have to say I find the design and sound turned out quite nicely and I don't think I'll be putting on any further work on that department, though I'll keeep experimenting with different ribbons. Maybe even reduce the ribbon width, as hinted by Cosmo. It is currently 6 mm, but maybe 5 or 4 mm wide would cut out quite a bit of low end. What do you reckon?

As soon as I have some time I'll record something (maybe with a transparent sounding pre to avoid introducing artifacts) to let you hear the beast in action.

 

[El Fito]

Ah, another thing that may interest you designers: The yellow thigs you see in the pic are "magnet sockets", made out of U channel (iron): You just cut the channel to size, then get a piece of tin sheet and solder that on either end (so as to close the ends of the socket), then drill the holes at the bottom of the channel to attach the spring actuated bolts. As the bottom of the channel will now be lumpy with both bolt heads and that's where the magnets would normally sit, you'll need a strip of iron or tin to sit on them (and thus make a flat bottom on which to rest the magnets).

Once that's in place, you just need to place two magnets on either socket. No need for gluing - hey presto!

If you don't understand this, take a look at the pics whilst reading and it should hopefully make sense.

 

[ToobieSnack]

hey fito,
I am going to get around to hosting and posting your new pics today some time....alll looks cool.
Thanks for your last post ...it's as if you read my mind....the exact questions I kicked myself for forgetting to ask were answered.

I was wondering what material that yellow stuff was ...welll i guess it's PAINT....HEHE....and iron u channnel with the ends covered like a watering trough for a horse.....and yes i don't imagine these would need glue fro the magnets.....:wink:.....it's probably hard to get them OUT of the channel...lol
ONE thing: i would be interested to know what change would take place if you were to strap the magnets together ..... let me see if I can explain myself clearly....(don't laugh I have done it once or twice...lol)
OK as I understand it it will increase your output.
implementation is as follows:
magnetic flux is eminating from the back of your U channel...this energy is being wasted since it directs itself outward into the air....by placing some iron from the (back of the U channel) N side of one magnet and joining to the (back of the u channel) S side of the other (like a c shape). this will in effect make the 2 magnets like one horse shoe magnet. this is what i beleive is reffered to as a magnetic return circuit.
Now I know you said no more motor work but... i think this is simple enough and for testing wouldn't need any glue or epoxy just attach them magnetically to see the results ...then if it proves to be favorable you can epoxy them in place....if nothing else maybe you couild try it to accomodate my curiousity...:grin:

i think you will benifit from this mod.

also have you read my post about "ribbon material/readily available substitutes" there is some interesting infor there from marik PRR and others.
Also: I'd like you to take a look at my next to last post there where I explain my ribbon process and see if it is similar to the KitKat approach.
I think I know what you are talking about but...the KitKat's I haveseen lately have a mylar/foil ....this is where my confusion set in...i think the KK you are using are the older style with the printed paper on the outside and a seperate foil and white paper on the inside....right?

anyway check this out and see if there are similarities and also maybe you can find some useful info.

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=6941&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

OH another thing of interest. your adjustment bolts for the pole adjustment....I'd like to see a better pic of one of these...I'll go back and look at the pics again but i am curious about their exact construction and wonder if I can implement the same/similar design..AS everone knows it's not a good idea to throw around a ribbon mic....I was looking to minimize mechanical shock damage and have been apprehensive about spring mounting anything. Maybe if the springs are under high tension this would be ok....Is the u channel in a guide? to keep it from moving too much under shock load?

just curious.

anyway .... as always good luck and looking forward to your response.
later
ts

 

[El Fito]

Toobie, thanks a lot for hosting my pics!:grin:

I guess KitKats here have a different wrapping which is unwittingly convenient for ribbon mic builders!

Anyway, you got the exact picture about the u channels. The way I attached the bolts is this: firstly I tried building the sockets with a single bolt each and guides on either end (which would in turn fit into guides in the main frame), but I guess it was just too fiddly and I decided to build new sockets with two bolts each and no guide to keep them in place. The joint between the bolt and the u channel is rigid. Here's how I made it: as I explained in a previous posting, I drilled two holes on each channel, through which the bolts go. The bolt heads go inside the channel. Try filing the heads as much as possible to keep them as flush as you can.

Now screw in a nut from the outside for each bolt to keep it firmly in place. The way to prevent the magnet sockets from wobbling is to drill the hole in the main frame (through which the bolts will pass) as close to the bolt size as possible, but allowing it to slide freely. The other half of the secret is the spring: mine comes from an umbrella :shock:, so it's quite tough. Just make sure the spring has compression even with the bolts at their maximum travel. That should take care of the rigidity keeping the construction simple and without the need to add guides or gizmos. :green:

I'll check out your other sugegstions and keep you posted.

 

[ToobieSnack]

fito thanks for the info....
I think you may have missed my point....
I think your magnet assymbly is great!
the "tension adjust"....for the RIBBON.... is where I though might have room for a small amount of imrovement...once again I do not have the mic in my hand so you are the best judge..you see the adjust is done with a single bolt....something you experienced trouble with on your magnet mounts...right?...I thought this may be a concern...ONLY if the mic is dropped...which might be disasterous at any level ...just depending how for it fell...of course handle as any studio mic should be....:grin: ...everything will be cool....I did experience this with my first mic and thought I'd relay the experience....:grin:

also thanks fo the info at my ribbon material thread...what i really wanted to know is if you used the same/similar process for removing the paper from your kk wrapper?

the foam idea you spoke of was a consideration...i think the pitch of the tooth on the soy sauce lid was steep and sharp and was cuttin my ribbons....also if you lay the ribbon flat across the peak it's like stretching a rope across a river and driving a truck across it ....it's gonna break...for this reason i go from ridge to ridge holding the finished part and allowing the rest to float so that the slack will be ther to go into the deep ridge.

anyway check the ribbon materials thread and leave you ever so valuable info/opinion ont he seperation of the paper from the kk wrapper to share with the rest of us ribbon freaks...lol :grin....wait..... did you say there was no paper glued to this wrapper?....hmmm i might know what you are talking about now...is it similar to a "hersheys kiss" wrapper?

well anyway on to other things...
I will beposting some more pics/info/progress on my TCA 74b soon ...now this thing is built like a tank....as yo have so kindly noted...but really it is solid...I am thinking of changing my game plan a bit as it relates to the body design... i have alway like the Grundig GRM ribbon mic... it has this nice sleek body...oval when viewed from the side and square from the front.....it will be so much easier to build too....my brother in law built me a copper base enclosure...but as for all things after bolting it in place i just didn't like it...:sad: i realized there was a bunch of wasted space in the front and about 1/4" on the width...any way I'll go into greater detail at the thread..just a little pre-post info...:grin:

BTW i've been lookin for an opinion from you at my TCA thread....what's up with that? :grin: hehe ....cat got your toungue...hehe :grin:

I mean it's not really important ...but I did expect "some" comment...??

any way good luck
later
ts

 

[ToobieSnack]

fito...you gotta have this article posted by NYD...super great ref...5 megs but well worth it... :grin:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=4533


all the math you've ever wanted and then some...hehe

later
ts

 

[El Fito]

Toobie, thanks a lot for the heads up on this article. I'll have a look and educate myself a bit...

 

[Sammas]

[quote author="El Fito"]Some perforated plated steel I bought yesterday at a diy shop. I carved the negative of the screen shape in a plank of wood, placed the metal sheet on top and banged it with a hammer :twisted: until it bent as required. It is 1 mm thick, so it took a fair bit of hammering.[/quote]


It certianly looks brilliant!

I remember putting 1.5mm perf stainless steel in a metalwork Guillotine and jumping down on the lever only to watch my $400Aust peice of shiny metal fold

Its tough as hell that stuff. I finally managed to cut it and it sits nicely under my glass studio decktop :twisted:


That body looks fantastic... Have you used it yet? hows it sound?

 

[ToobieSnack]

seeing the previous post reminded me...

Fito when considering the grill forming I had this idea ...

I think of it your wood form is a good candidate for this application..

your wood negative is beautiful and your hammer is in effect your positive

i had the idea to use both a negative and a positive form and ....(ok don't laugh) ......a car ....... and a car jack...hehe

you could seal off the end of your wood form and pour some melted metal into this and make a negative for your form...and use your car and your car jack :grin:

you like this idea?

later
ts

 

[ToobieSnack]

HI fito
sorry this took me some time....but...here ... I hosted some more pics for you.

ALSO: check out my thread on my mic ...new ...excellent update
My copper body work!!!! :shock: :grin: ...well ...my bro-in-law and me... :grin:
WAY COOL!! PICs SOON :grin:

anyway here are some of your more recent pics:

later
ts

 

[El Fito]

Toobie, once again I'm indebted to you :green: . Thanks ever so much for hosting these pics.

Latest update on this: don't remember if I told you, but following your advice, I experimented adding additional magnets: I have four on each side, whihc has increased the signal/noise ratio quite a bit. Further, I flattened ciggie foil until it's very thin (just with my finger), then used fewer but quite a bit deeper corrugations, and that's just the ticket for more defined HF.

Finally, I snatched 25 male xlr panel mounts from evil bay, one of which I proceeded to install at th eback of my mic instead of the pigtail. Ah, and on top of that, I peeled off the green paint we all loved so much and instead polished the whole thing and covered with clear metal lacquer. Which makes it look seriously vintage.

I am now awaiting a couple a guitar strap buttons to redo the thumbscrews in style (Damn, Toobie! why do I listen to you :green: ???), all of which should make for a first-class looking mic!

Anyway, will take pics of all of the above and let you know when they're up - and I promise to learn to host my own pics !

 

[ToobieSnack]

wow :shock: :grin: ...lol ...thanks for your kind comments... :grin: quite amusing too :grin:

I'm glad you liked my suggestions.....I can't wait to see the finished product
sounds like you are really spicing it up... gettin them details down... :grin:

I really would have liked to go for the look you have...it's seriously nice.. :grin: :sam: :sam:

and BTW ok now you got me thinkin I should change MY mic style.... bugger... hehe ...
i thought I was the only one that saw this shaving reference..hehe :sad: ..still looks cool though.... that copper color looks cool...
you think I should polish and clear coat? or let it turn?
I'm liking that clear coat idea ...
what are you using for clear coat?
...some stuff yellows immediately....
i found this out when i did my acoustic guitar...

I'm thinking that if I went for more of a "diamond shape" side view that would look cool too..... argggghhhh.... decisions. :? .decisions....I just never thougt of it before...it WOULD look more like the RCA...ahhh.. I can have two different grill covers...argghhh...twice the work.....no matter ...I love it... hehe :grin: my bro-in-law is gonna seriously FREAK :shock: hahaha lol lol ...ahhh hell... i think he starting to enjoy this...
he's been bit by the DIY bug..... :grin:
If not ..... looks like I'm getting some R snips, L snips and a bendy clampy thingy... lol... for making body peices.... hehe lol

BTW did you use the "hair comb" for your ribbon this time? :grin:

Also look on my thread and see if you might benifit from a magnetic return circuit similar to the one I have added lately...
MRC= the U from outside pole to outside pole...
just a couple of small iron straps with the ends bent 90% would be all you would need... i can expand on this explanation if you want more info.

anyway nice, as always, to see your kind comments :grin:

later
ts

BTW your pics SITE won't work (i think all sites with "album" have problems)
I have tried to host directly from your site and it is NOT possible...for me anyway
just try to find a free pic hosting site woth your google...there are tons out there ... maybe you can ask around at the brewery for pic host recommendations.
there is one that advertises on ebay .... i don't remmy the name right now..

ANYONE KNOW WHERE FITO CAN GET FREE PIC HOSTING?????

hmmm ...ther maybe that will help... hehe :grin:

 

[El Fito]

Hey Toobie, about the lacquer: I found a clear lacquer for metals in an electronics shop like RS. It's called PCB lacquer, so obviously it must be intended for spraying on pcbs and seal them with that. It is basically a clear metal lacquer like any other, so maybe in a car paint shop, diy shop or google you could find it. Other than that, if you and your pocket feel like going one better, you could get yourself a plug n' plate plating gizmo, which looks like an oversized q-tip dipped into a solution and plugged into a wall wart and is apparently good for applying gold, silver, copper, nickel or chrome on to smallish surfaces and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg.

Since I am quite happy with my metal polishing skills and am feeling cheap, I simply polished everything to a near-mirror shine and lacquered it on top. So far nothing's gone yellow. As you'll see in the pics (give me a couple of days), there are a couple of bits which are yellower than the rest, but that's simply due to the fact that it is not steel or tin, but German silver (which, by the way, is beautiful to work with and to look at - it's used for jewellery :shock: !).

 

[ToobieSnack]

thanks for the info fito

I would be interested in that "electric Q-tip" hehe...lol..

since my parts are "pure copper" they would be very condusive to recieving metal leaf....

gold plated would be WAY COOL!

post more info

thanks
later
ts

 

[El Fito]

HEADS UP ALL! THIS PROJECT IS NOW COMPLETED!!!! I finished the audio tests, tidying up the looks and any loose bits and bobs, taken the definitive pics and uploaded them here: http://elfito.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album01&id=Finished1 and here: http://elfito.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album01&id=Finished2

ISN'T SHE A BEAUTY??? Toobie, have you noticed the guitar strap buttons ans thumbscrews? Once they arrived, I realised I could actually make a thread in them, as I had a 4 mm tap lying about - and presto! strap buttons no more, now they are real thumbscrews! That had to be the icing on the cake. Thanks Toobie for prodding me into being so anal...

Anyway, a mic is worth nothing unless it sounds half-decent, right? Mate, does she sound good! It has the most beautiful sound I could have dreamed of! And not a bit of noise! Yes, Toobie, I know we used to have this problem with our vintage pres, but guess what: I eliminated all noise from my Ampex 600 by adding a Sowter input trafo and an output trafo... but that will be explained in more detail in another thread.

This is probably the best mic in my cabinet, and maybe I even like it better than my trusted tube Rode K2... especially considering that all my music is recorded with acoustic instruments. I still find it hard to believe that such amazing sound comes from a piece of cigarette packet foil that I picked up from the gutter!

 

[ToobieSnack]

:grin:!!super mate!! :grin:

absolutely stunning ! :grin: :shock: :grin: !

I am so happy for you. :grin:
it has been great fun and an honor to work with someone as nice and intelligent as you. :grin:

I'm glad we had so much fun with each others "friendly constructive criticisism" :grin: lol :grin:

and...YES ... i DID notice your thumbscrews....N_I_C_E_ :grin:

and your new finish too :grin:

now that baby can sing and shine!!!!! :grin:

I do miss the green a bit too though.... :sad:

and you see ....... this ability to push one another to the next level goes both ways.....
waaahhh...:sad:......waaahhh...
you see...now I MUST re-design MY grill cover.... i am not "completely" satisfied with my grill cover... :sad: It could be better ...I'm sure we are in agreement on this....arrrgghhh. :razz: lol

the new one will be better i am sure...only worry I have its too much flat surface blocking sound waves from the back....hmmm ...i dunno how it'll work out but probably will be ok. :grin:

ALSO:

I saw the way the JZ-1 was connected to the shock mount and I am liking this idea..see the pics at the brewery....

looks like guitar pegs too :shock: a bit anyway...with elastic too
OR two stacked and slightly spaced washers would work...

I'm gonna post a mini-update at my mic thread with some more info...

but for now CELBRATION IS IN ORDER :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam: :sam:

looking forward to the clips :grin:

cheers mate! :grin:

later
ts

BTW pic one was corrupt .... re-upload and i'll host it
ALSO: i use lots of lighting with pics.....2 halogens cross lighting is good with a natuaral room light....I know this thing is so pretty it could photgraped better... another nudge towards anal excellence? .. ..LOL...sorry is just slipped out ..hehe... lol :grin:

 

[El Fito]

Toobie, thanks for your very kind comments and thanks ever so much for all your help and your loopy comments that prodded me into experimenting until I got it just right :grin:.

Have a look at this thread I just posted about building a ribbon mic in just one day, which is precisely what I did yesterday!: http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=92482#92482

I applied some quick-build method I am quite happy with and I am sure you could get a few good ideas based on it. Check it out and let me know what you think.

Cheers,

El Fito