ethical dilemma using demo boards from manufacturer

[hazel]

The mistake was to substitute an opamp in place of a comparator, generally a harmless swap, but in this case the input bias current from the old school bipolar opamp created a DC current term at a sensitive input  node of a compander IC. Real comparators are optimized for low input bias and offset current, among other things. I suspect the application note substituted the opamp into the design because they didn't sell a comparator so they wanted to make the application note using all their brand ICs.

LOL this is the exact reason i'm thinking about DEMO BOARDS, i didn't understand a word you said  :-\ excuse my ignorance JR

I wouldn't change major things on circuit but adding features that are a must IME....at that point is where people like you JR and other big brains here can help me.

Hours past and IC manufacturer didn't reply...maybe due to time zone, wait a few more hours

 

[[silent:arts]]

I tried, but I can't see any ethical dilemma.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The mistake was to substitute an opamp in place of a comparator, generally a harmless swap, but in this case the input bias current from the old school bipolar opamp created a DC current term at a sensitive input  node of a compander IC. Real comparators are optimized for low input bias and offset current, among other things. I suspect the application note substituted the opamp into the design because they didn't sell a comparator so they wanted to make the application note using all their brand ICs.

LOL this is the exact reason i'm thinking about DEMO BOARDS, i didn't understand a word you said  :-\ excuse my ignorance JR

I wouldn't change major things on circuit but adding features that are a must IME....at that point is where people like you JR and other big brains here can help me.

Hours past and IC manufacturer didn't reply...maybe due to time zone, wait a few more hours

I guess the most interesting thing about the example I offered is that the IC maker who published the application note, "should" have known better, but these applications are often generated by junior engineers or even outside consultants so aren't always rigorously vetted.

If you can't follow what I write, perhaps a demo board is perfect for you...

JR

 

[Andy Peters]

I don't see any ethical dilemma.

I've seen enclosures for Xilinx development boards for sale. People actually integrate the boards into a system.

Of course, the cost of an eval board for some of those devices is often pricey, but less so than trying to get one or two boards made for a specific project, especially when BGA devices are involved.

A real problem with demo boards is that the form factor is often a problem. They're too big or the connectors are in inconvenient locations. If you have to spring for a PCB to attach to an eval board's headers, you might as well put the eval board circuitry on your PCB.

-a (gots lots of various eval boards)

 

[hazel]

the more i read this/my thread the more i realise i overthought about ethics and the true spirit of DIY, maybe a bit excessive romantic idea  :-[

If you can't follow what I write, perhaps a demo board is perfect for you...

you nailed JR!

Of course, the cost of an eval board for some of those devices is often pricey

totally agree Andy, i won't save any money but lots of headaches

A real problem with demo boards is that the form factor is often a problem.

you're right again Andy, 7x5 inches is a big PCB, lot of space for experimentation but too big

 

[PRR]

>> I haven't seen any demo boards that were remotely close to usable production designs
> Now i'm just scared about what you said. I... don't want it to sound like crap.

Maybe what he means, or what I read, is that the typical demo board is huge and covered with gnarly power-connectors and probe-points and option-jumpers so you can quickly set-up with bench power and study the inner workings. Like a 1"*2" core on a 4"*6" board. And maybe all unbalanced in/out for 'scope connections instead of the balanced in/out we prefer in studio.

But if it suits YOUR need, do it.

Anyway the exact idea is that you play with it, get excited, and then build-in the key parts in your *next* new project. (And the hope that some new product becomes a million-seller, but even in explicitly commercial development that is always a long-shot.)

> manufacturer sells evaluation boards so i'm not stealing

Kewl.

Anyway, I just got email from a large (2-letter) chip company touting their educational services. One is a contest where students build some gizmo, report, including costs. The rules say that demo-boards (which students must buy) must be counted at cost, but chips (which are free) don't count in cost, AND that if you think you need 5 chips you should request 10 chips just-in-case.

I think running-off a thousand guitar-pedals by abusing the free-sample chip program would be stealing; but requesting 5 or 10 chips to put demo-pedals in front of key players and guitar-store purchasing agents might be roughly what the free-chip program is intended for. (Don't say you are an educational buyer when you aim to make money; IAC I know that TI aims for better free-chip service to commercial development and student-samples may come by slow-boat.)

> Nothing annoys me more than eval boards gathering dust.

1973(?) I *paid* 6 bucks a pop for samples of the early TIP Darlingtons. (When cold-war and VietNam were hot, bedroom builders did not get freebies, or I didn't know how to ask.) I used a couple. 2008 I finally threw-out the rest. 35 years of dust.

 

[hazel]

Nothing annoys me more than eval boards gathering dust.

It doesn't annoy me but every time i stare at my near-to-finish major project to date (8 channel mic/line preamp in 1u) i think "need to finish this" and say "i'm sorry darling, can not meet your parents next weekend, i'll be very busy"  ;D

PS: just joking, you know i really love you, don't make me sleep on the couch for a week

 

[JohnRoberts]

> Nothing annoys me more than eval boards gathering dust.

1973(?) I *paid* 6 bucks a pop for samples of the early TIP Darlingtons. (When cold-war and VietNam were hot, bedroom builders did not get freebies, or I didn't know how to ask.) I used a couple. 2008 I finally threw-out the rest. 35 years of dust.

I have been better about throwing (and giving) stuff away but I still have some very old, very obscure parts laying around in my back lab from the early '70s.

It seems that the major IC companies were a little more accessible back then, just pick up a telephone and call... but even then I was not about making one-off projects, so free onsey-twosey samples were of limited interest.  In one of my early technician gigs, I was working with very early BBD shift registers, and each batch of prototype ICs that arrived from Phillips in Holland was different. Later when I offered a kit BBD delay I used a Matshusita (Panasonic) part that was very stable (the Japanese were good about that, or better than us in the '70s). 

I have no qualms about paying for prototype parts. I actually prefer to buy from distribution so I know what I'm getting. I understand the design-in chase that the major IC makers engage in, and to some extent their customers are willing partners, where nuts and bolts engineering is considered a commodity, so the sharp pencil crowd has no qualms about using canned solutions.

For another cautionary story about copying application notes without bothering to understand them.. I recall when I did a CX (obscure vinyl NR) kit, I found a playback time-constant mistake in CBS's licensee documentation typical embodiment, that a major consumer brand had copied verbatim and already sold a few 10k units. To make it right, after I notified them, CBS changed the recording standard to agree with the mistake... That system deserved to fail... good riddance. 

JR

 

[PRR]

me> I just got email from a large (2-letter) chip company touting their educational services.

The TI University Program offers educators discounted tools, free products, and lab materials so students can learn TI technology in teaching labs that are smarter and more fun. Our advanced analog and embedded processing technologies fuel the passions of students and educators in more than 4,000 university labs worldwide. Contact us and discover how the TI University Program can help you push the boundaries and explore new horizons:  

for educators
Register   register to our TI University Program and receive preferred pricing on tools and evaluation modules, subscription to the quarterly enewsletter, access to TI’s online support, information on trainings and workshops and other useful materials to get your course ramped up with TI.
projects   teaching materials: Browse our TI-recommended textbooks and access sample course material, student lab exercises, source code and instructor notes in our selection of Teaching ROMs. Share your course material and collaborate across curriculums, schools, and countries within TI’s Teaching Repository.
tools & free ICs   development tools: TI offers academic discounts on our analog and embedded processing products, and in some instances donation of kits for laboratory installations, free samples of chips for educational hardware creation and more.
training & support   workshops, educator conferences and technology days: TI offers a wide range of workshops and Technology Days around the globe as well as online and in-person customer trainings.

for students
contests   design contests: TI sponsors local design contests for engineering students across the globe. Contests provide students with the opportunity to show off their skills using TI products and provide valuable real-world experience.
tools & free ICs   tools & free samples: TI makes it easy to identify the device or evaluation module you are looking for with a variety of selection tools and guides. Browse our portfolio of high-performance analog and embedded processing ICs and order chips free through our Free Sample Program.
projects   project repository: Students can share their latest and greatest projects based on TI parts. This is a great place for students to get inspired, share resources and collaborate.
training & support   training & support: TI makes it easy to adopt our parts and tools into your projects with various training material. Tap into our online E2E (engineer-to-engineer) community. View videos, read blogs or access our support forums.
careers@TI   careers: Your career starts here. Want to change the world and love your job? Explore the possibilities at TI.

TI E2E Community get connected

http://ti.com/university  {note: sneers at my MSIE8 then directs me to install MSIE 8. Stupid?)

 

[Rochey]

get them hooked early on!

 

[hazel]

No answer from IC manufacturer  did something wrong??

 

[Andy Peters]

No answer from IC manufacturer  did something wrong??

Are you saying that you asked a particular manufacturer about their policy regarding the use of development boards in an end product or something else and you didn't get a reply,

or

are you asking if any manufacturers' reps have seen this thread and have not replied?

(Rochey works for a chip vendor, btw)

-a

 

[JohnRoberts]

I recall back in the '70s I could get a TI engineer on the phone by calling the company switchboard... I haven't tried that lately, i doubt all the engineers are even located in TX these days, as they gobbled up several linear brands.

JR

 

[hazel]

No answer from IC manufacturer  did something wrong??

Are you saying that you asked a particular manufacturer about their policy regarding the use of development boards in an end product or something else and you didn't get a reply,

or

are you asking if any manufacturers' reps have seen this thread and have not replied?

(Rochey works for a chip vendor, btw)

-a

I asked manufacturer to use their demo board for educational and fun purpose, how easy/difficult would be to make some mods AND if they are interested in open a new thread here so more DIYers would be encouraged to get some of their chips/demo boards

 

[hazel]

I got an answer from ic company!!!!

They're glad to help me with this project and attached couple schematics for mods i planned!!!!

It will be my second major project (i'll start a new thread here) when finish my first major project (include thread)