Fader Box for mixing setup

[craigmorris74]

I'm currently using a hybrid mixing setup, sending 10 stems out of the computer that are compressed and EQ'd by hardware, that get sent to a passive mixer with makeup gain provided by mic preamps.  I love the way this setup sounds, but there is one major limitation:  the ability to control the level of each stem after EQ and compression.  If I want to increase the volume of one of the busses, the only option I have is increasing the level on the DAW, but that affects the level and the tone of the hardware (and the compressors just compress more, undoing the level increase).

What I would like to add to the setup would be a box with 10 faders to control levels before they hit the mixer.  I've read several threads where folks were wanting to implement similar things, but haven't found an answer that addresses my particular situation.  I guess I have a few options:
1.  buy this box:  http://www.speck.com/viafader/viafader.html  this seems to be what I want, but the 10 fader version is about $1600.  I think that's a little steep, but not sure?
2.  use faders in a passive box
3.  use faders with active electronics to improve performance.  I've built quite a bit of my gear, but don't know exactly how to do this.  Looked for ideas online, but there seems to be a lot of options, and not sure what would be best practice for my situation.

I've attached a diagram that might clarify my setup and where I want the faders.

Thanks in advance,
Craig

 

[ruffrecords]

Seems like what you need is a passive mixer with faders on the inputs. Not to hard to do. NY Dave did a design for this a few years back. You should be able to find it on here.

Cheers

Ian

 

[craigmorris74]

Seems like what you need is a passive mixer with faders on the inputs. Not to hard to do. NY Dave did a design for this a few years back. You should be able to find it on here.

Cheers

Ian

Thanks for the reply, Ian.  Any recommendations for brand/model?
Craig

 

[JohnRoberts]

do you have any output level control for your digital stems?

Passive analog level is relatively simple, level and pan generally increases insertion loss.

JR

 

[craigmorris74]

do you have any output level control for your digital stems?

Passive analog level is relatively simple, level and pan generally increases insertion loss.

JR

The only output level control I have is with the DAW.  Of course, if I do level increases there, I'm just increasing the gain reduction of any compression on that bus.  I could use the output controls of my compressors, but doing level moves on those is pretty cumbersome.

What would insertion loss be for a dual gang 5k fader (approximately)? 

 

[JohnRoberts]

The only output level control I have is with the DAW.  Of course, if I do level increases there, I'm just increasing the gain reduction of any compression on that bus.  I could use the output controls of my compressors, but doing level moves on those is pretty cumbersome.

What would insertion loss be for a dual gang 5k fader (approximately)?

A passive sum will generally experience an insertion loss of 1/n where, n is number of stems, irrespective of impedance. Of course circuit details can matter.

JR 

 

[craigmorris74]

A passive sum will generally experience an insertion loss of 1/n where, n is number of stems, irrespective of impedance. Of course circuit details can matter.

JR

Thanks for your reply, John.  Also, I know you have big-time experience with mixers, are there any faders that you recommend (or advise I stay away from)?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Thanks for your reply, John.  Also, I know you have big-time experience with mixers, are there any faders that you recommend (or advise I stay away from)?

Use good ones stay away from crappy ones...

I haven't bought faders for several decades so I literally do not know what is good these days.

JR

 

[craigmorris74]

Gotcha.  To measure insertion loss that I'd see with different faders, I simulated what loss would be at the top of the fader by using fixed resistors put in place of the fader in the old NYD passive mixer schematic (attached).  In his schematic it calls for 5K variable resistors for the fader.  Is there any reason I can't use 10K?  There's a lot more selection out there, and I get less insertion loss.

 

[user 37518]

Thanks for your reply, John.  Also, I know you have big-time experience with mixers, are there any faders that you recommend (or advise I stay away from)?

If you want premium faders then P&G is the way to go but they are expensive, otherwise look for something like Alps.

 

[craigmorris74]

I'm going to test some Alps faders and pots and see if they will work.  P&G is are a little expensive if the Alps will work.

 

[scott2000]

Figured I'd mentioned TKD faders too in case it has relevance somewhere......

I've seen them mentioned favorably and not .....

 

[craigmorris74]

Figured I'd mentioned TKD faders too in case it has relevance somewhere......

I've seen them mentioned favorably and not .....

Know anyone who sells those?

 

[scott2000]

Know anyone who sells those?

Never looked bought so not off hand...

Mr. Roth mentioned this place while talking about them somewhere though.... but idk....

http://ralaudio.com/tkd-tokyo-koon-denpa-co-ltd-m-87.html?osCsid=8c83341f09ea652b914be7af32dff8b3

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm going to test some Alps faders and pots and see if they will work.  P&G is are a little expensive if the Alps will work.

Alps were not the cheapest faders out there...  P&G were more than a little expensive.  I recall paying $40 a fader for P&Gs back in the 70s/80s. (A bunch more counting inflation since then).

Alps made some decent faders for the $10 ballpark but probably not still... At one point Panasonic was making some nice inexpensive faders but I believe they stopped.

Good luck.

JR

 

[craigmorris74]

Alps were not the cheapest faders out there...  P&G were more than a little expensive.  I recall paying $40 a fader for P&Gs back in the 70s/80s. (A bunch more counting inflation since then).

Alps made some decent faders for the $10 ballpark but probably not still... At one point Panasonic was making some nice inexpensive faders but I believe they stopped.

Good luck.

JR

I found some Alps faders for $10ish and bought a couple to test.  I got a couple of Alps pots for the same money that look pretty nice.  I've also ordered some bottom of the food chain faders for a couple of bucks a piece to try.  I'm starting low and working my way up.  I'm going for the cheapest solution that does this job well.  These aren't faders that are going to get a lot of use-I'll just be using them to boost the volumes of stems that need to increase in volume in choruses, solos, etc.

Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Last century I was getting some nice Alps faders in the $2-3 range (with dual metal guide rods for nice feel), but we were buying production quantity.  There were cheaper similar versions (like Korean Jung Poon) but not very robust.

Back then there were a bunch of small companies trying to break into the business, now I suspect there are even more. You can probably find sliders for <$1 but they won't feel like console faders.

JR 

 

[ruffrecords]

http://www.audiomaintenance.com/acatalog/faders_carbon.html

Cheers

Ian

 

[laitue5]

Hello Craig, did you build the mini mixer you wanted?

 

[MidnightArrakis]

I'm currently using a hybrid mixing setup, sending 10 stems out of the computer that are compressed and EQ'd by hardware, that get sent to a passive mixer with makeup gain provided by mic preamps. I love the way this setup sounds, but there is one major limitation: the ability to control the level of each stem after EQ and compression. If I want to increase the volume of one of the busses, the only option I have is increasing the level on the DAW, but that affects the level and the tone of the hardware (and the compressors just compress more, undoing the level increase).

What I would like to add to the setup would be a box with 10 faders to control levels before they hit the mixer. I've read several threads where folks were wanting to implement similar things, but haven't found an answer that addresses my particular situation. I guess I have a few options:
1. buy this box: http://www.speck.com/viafader/viafader.html this seems to be what I want, but the 10 fader version is about $1600. I think that's a little steep, but not sure?
2. use faders in a passive box
3. use faders with active electronics to improve performance. I've built quite a bit of my gear, but don't know exactly how to do this. Looked for ideas online, but there seems to be a lot of options, and not sure what would be best practice for my situation.

I've attached a diagram that might clarify my setup and where I want the faders.

Thanks in advance,
Craig

[What I would like to add to the setup would be a box with 10 faders to control levels before they hit the mixer] -- Here's a possible start.....

>> A current design project "in-the-works" that may be similar in nature to what you are looking to do:


[I've built quite a bit of my gear, but don't know exactly how to do this] -- I design "stuff" to be built. Once you figure out how and what it is that you want to do and can come up with a schematic, even if hand-drawn (but, still clearly-drawn and complete in all manners), then I can provide you with the end data to have sheet-metal and PCBs fabricated as is necessary.

You can see some of my equipment design examples here:

https://groupdiy.com/threads/diy-rack-enclosure-extrusion.88722/post-1173708

/