Fake / mislabelled TL071CP

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^^^^^

My experience too. Given the scale of manufacturing, and the broad customer base (domestic and international), there are going to be bad eggs. "Gwanshee" (I've only heard the word, never seen its written) is a mandarin term that equated to "business relationship". Good gwanshee comes with trust and the promise of consequences to your entire business network, should you decide to act immorally.

Conclusion, given six years of regular trips to China...

Don't expect trust or honesty on single transactions (think 1 off EBay etc, or single purchase broker deals), but trust and honesty can be built on multiple transactions and frequent communication.

/R
 
China has a history and culture far richer and much older than mine. It is wrong to try to characterize that many people with simple stereotypes. I have had good and bad experiences with people and businesses from many different countries and cultures.

We are far more similar than different but it is always wise to "trust but verify", "caveat emptor", "measure twice- cut once", and other well tested old wisdom.

We are all operating in our own self-interest, it is natural for there to be tension and even conflict sometimes.

JR
 
If you have traveled you know that people, cultures and governments are not the same thing. I personally believe that most people and all cultures are inherently good.

I have visited china a several times, and with as everywhere I have been the people are friendly, and the culture is very different from mine.  The people are a great people with a rich culture, the system oppresses them, and everyone there knows it. Most all would say they wished they could change it, and in China many are afraid to say anything at all.

To understand the fear, you really have to visit. For example; If you have a "private" Chinese internet connection in your home, and you Google "Free Tibet", your internet connection will shut down within minutes. A person doing this would rightly fear that this information will be recorded and used against them later should doing so become useful to the party.  It is disturbing to a visitor, and frightening to someone that can't leave. Such practices are different in different parts of the country, what works in Shanghai might not work in the countryside.

With respect to the executions related to the Milk Adulteration fiasco, unlike a country where the "rule of law" is paramount and where the rich and powerful can be jailed, punishment by the government is more likely to fall upon a "fall guy" or an unpopular person with little "Guanxi"  (simplified: Relationship Capital) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi, than upon a wealthy person, or a powerful party member or his friends and family.

I do not blame the Chinese people or their culture and feel it is unfair to characterize the issue as an issue of culture, it is simply an issue of incentives in a police state.

The "5 year plan (or current version)" says milk production will grow at 20% per year, and it would be dangerous for the poor slob running the factory not to produce more milk.  The boss of a factory is there often because of many factors unrelated to education, capability, or character and often is chosen due to relationships, wealth and a complex interaction of factors that unfortunately do not often bring the best, brightest and most honorable person to the top. Was it stupid or dishonest? Was it evil or an unwise practical choice made by an uneducated person? He wanted protein to measure higher... did he know that it was a poison?  We will never know, and open investigation will never occur.

Some factory head probably was punished (or his underling if the factory head was powerful), this is conjecture, the system is closed and we cannot know the truth. But there are many factories, and the punishment is simply to placate the masses. The other Milk factories can change with a new policy and stop doing the adulteration and hopefully have done so.  The system is at fault, and there are powerful persons in the system that knew this was happening, and they were surely not punished.

I can't say that in a fair world they would be.  In a fair world the system would change, and from my last visit I believe there is hope that it will.  There appears to be a microeconomic boom going on. I got some sense of a feeling that a person can improve himself or his family through effort, and saw that many people  now have some visibility ( due to internet and communication tech) to other ways of life and opportunities. I think China, in trying to create a middle class, may have let a genie out of the bottle. 

In the Soviet Union it seems (I have not visited personally) that this lead to a robber baron phenomenon which has decreased in amplitude, and I hope for the sake of it's people it will stabilize to something better than the old Soviet Union.

In China the robber baron phenomenon has been "built in" for quite a while, so I think it will follow a different path, but any change is reason for hope. 

I feel a country founded in revolution has the best chance of creating a better society for it's people (but I may be prejudging this as a US citizen).  The US is such a country, I think Turkey is another example, younger with some problems. I have hope for Egypt too, although in these early days it is hard to see through the noise.

I am convinced that nation building from the outside doesn't work.

Sorry for the WAY off topic reply but yes, there are robber baron's in China selling counterfeit IC's and while some may see this as a problem of culture, I prefer to see it as the signs of a microeconomic boom that someday will lead to the freeing of her people.

Don't blame the culture it is all they have going for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius#Ethics

So Living Sounds... on behalf of the Chinese people thank you for contributing to the efforts for freedom ::)

 
millzners said:
But on the flip side I do business with a "cheap Chinese factory" daily for my day job and they are always helpful, friendly, and responsive.  I think it's worth saying that in my experience there are some very hardworking and responsible people there even though there is little incentive for them to be that way.

I think the "incentive" is that they know that someone is paying attention, and that someone has (certainly in their mind, if not the strict reality) the ability to yank the production contract from them at any time.

-a
 
It's a good point that , " that  " style of government hasn't been known for producing quality goods
but when even the big box stores have stuff , not working out of the box , the percentage seems high ,
with a good chance that I'll have to make extra trips [ & time ] that I really take a second thought about
buying anything and especially from China .
A friend who worked in manufacturing , insists that it's all how you " spec " it , but it sure seems like the factories
try to get away with as much as they can .
Can you " buy " levels of QC ? or how do companies that are successful manage it ? [ Example ? ]
 
Yes, you can buy differing levels of qc. Seriously, the same factory will offer 3 different "grades" of the same product

There is usually a significant price jump between grades too.

What most of the electronic factories do is cross reference components for a lower cost local supplier, the. Swallow the difference as extra margin. They have to do it to make any money, having killed each other in bidding wars.

I often see oem's (brand name owners and occasionally designers) use a color code on their bill of materials -
Green = open to cross ref (eg non signal chain resistors)
Orange = call me first
Red = don't cross ref this part, or I'll fly to china and rip your nads off

Also worth adding that there are some decent Chinese semi and passive manufacturers.

Again, the biggest area I see fakes are in those 1 off transactions with grey market distributors/brokers who have no way of tracing parts back to the manufacturer. (Eg no lot codes etc)

Cheers

R
 
As with any human endeavor the likelihood of getting caught influences the opportunity cost and frequency of cheating. Also threat of recourse if caught after the fact is a factor influencing behavior. I recall seeing one small business start up put out of business because he bought a container full of low cost guitars that were going to make him rich when he resold them at US prices, but the crap that arrived were all but impossible to sell at any price. Since he paid for the guitars before the container left China he had zero recourse. I guess the factory gambled to forgo repeat orders from him, for the quick profit.  :p

The classic advice about dealing with Chinese manufacturing is to have boots on the ground. If not full time employees there all the time, send employees on frequent visits and hire a local agent to represent your interests. At a minimum having your people in the factory at final assembly before product is packed out to ship is useful. 

Finally a factory in China i very much like a factory anywhere else in the world. Manufacturing discipline requires documentation for bills of material, with complete specs and approved vendors for every component, and assembly routings with detailed assembly instructions. Many US (western?) manufacturers get sloppy about how much of the assembly details are documented, relying upon experienced factory workers who have done the same or similar task for years, not forgetting how to do it the next time. Transferring a SKU to a factory thousands of miles away, requires complete documentation and robust process control. I have seen my share of similar bad guesses made by factory workers only 25 miles away. When I worked at Peavey I used to visit one of my major factories about once a week, because it was only a few miles out of my way driving in to my office. I was always met with questions that needed answers and often stumbled upon things that needed to be improved. This is called "management by walking around" and in hindsight not optimal, because over time, workers get used to the accessibility so don't notify you about problems immediately, waiting for the next time you come around. 

This is not a game for small companies to undertake casually, but there are some assemblies that can be adequately defined by digital design documents that they are harder to mess up. I can't recall last time I got PCB that weren't from China (I only experienced one run of prototype boards with marginal copper adhesion, and they were good enough to prototype the design). While I haven't experimented with sheet metal from China I may, it seems similar to PCBs where it is possible to comprehensively document the part. It's not that they actively look for ways to cheat, but when multiple details are not specified, lacking guidance, they will make the most profitable choices for themselves. This is where having a presence in the factory can avoid bad choices made in the vacuum of incomplete documentation. 

JR
 
PS: The mislabeled parts do seem more dishonest than accidental.

PPS: While a little off topic I'm afraid I can't agree that revolutions are very successful ways to begin a good government. While a common way to end a bad one. We are an unusual case where we benefited greatly from British influence. There are numerous example of "revolutions" that evolved into oppressive regimes. (Do I need to lit them all, Cuba, Iran, Venezuela,....  etc.)  it is interesting to see how Pakistan is struggling with the universal desire for self governance. There the judiciary is the activist branch of the fledgling democracy, but currently at odds with the military for not providing them enough security. A prosecutor was just assassinated in a drive by shooting, in the recently arrested (ex-Gen) Mushareff case. Mushareff is trying to re-enter politics there (what is he thinking?)... In that part of the world assassination is how politics is commonly practiced. One of the charges against Mushareff is that he provided inadequate security for the candidate Bhutto who was assassinated while Mushareff was in power.   
 
living sounds said:
Rochey said:
Had they been from Avnet/Arrow/Digikey/Mouser/Farnell etc, you would have been welcome to return the IC's etc.

Ordering from any of these in Germany is not much fun (went through this more than once) and especially not for small amounts.

Well, but what about Reichelt? 27 cents per piece and fast delivery.
 
Don't worry, there are the fake italian and french cheeses too, that's much bad than findind a fake TL072 :D.
In Italy and France the laws are very rigorous for foods,
"Parmiggiano reggiano" and "Grana Padano" are ALL very good to eat, for example,
(same thing for many other italian and french cheeses), so if you eat a piece of them that is not tasty it is most likely fake.
But the problem is the health that we should see in this case than the flavor.
 
I had some Grana Padano (Italy's #2 melting cheese) on a stack of roast eggplant and tomato the other day, and I sensed a distinct rolloff above 5K hz.
 
bruce0 said:
I had some Grana Padano (Italy's #2 melting cheese) on a stack of roast eggplant and tomato the other day, and I sensed a distinct rolloff above 5K hz.

roast eggplant and tomato with Grana Padano melt over it?
delicious! very tasty!  8)
 
Slice the eggplant thick (3/8" to 1/2" LAMS)
If you are in california, turkey or italy you can just grill them... in wetter parts of the world where the eggplant is heavy you may want to salt the lams to let them bleed out moisture...  but rinse off all the salt before grilling.  Brown stripes on the eggplant lams and you are fine.

Make a bright tomato sauce (tomato puree (i use Lomi) ) - sautee garlic and onion, lots and lots of fresh ground pepper and do it in olive oil.  Put the mix (after sautee but before cooking in a blender with a half cup of acid like white wine or orange juice with a little lemon juice.  Puree the mix till it is pink with air.  Then cook it until it turns orange (about 10-15 minutes).  Short cooking time is the key to bright tomato sauce.  This way it stays bright flavoured (no 2 hours on the stove sauce...you want bright not dark).

Cover a grill pan with foil, and "reassemble" the stacks of eggplant with a little sauce, a little "Whole milk mozzerella" and a little parmesian and padano grated between each layer.

Toothpick in the stack so they don't fall over.  Cook the stack for 5 minutes on the grill.

Really nice... and they store well in the fridge for later re-heating.
 

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