Fiscal Cliff Explained

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Excuse me for my ignorance, but would it really be any problem to do in the US like e.g. Greece (was forced to) do - raising taxes to a level where it can pay the public expenses?

Maybe living in a country with relatively high income taxes (~50%, give or take a bit) has made me insensitive, but I fail to see the real problem in solving the budget puzzle...?

Back in the 50'es and 60'es, taxes were in this order of magnitude also in the US - and at the time it wasn't really a problem, was it?

Jakob E.
 
Well, Denmark has the highest effective tax rate as well as the lowest income inequality and the highest minimum wages. It's the best real life example today for the superiority of a progressive economy.

You won't convince the ideologically commited US right-wingers with these facts however. The small minority profiting from the blatant disfunction in their system is fighting tooth and nail to keep their massively disproportionate share of the wealth (and gain even more).

Demographics need to shift even further for the disfunctional political system to allow for a long overdue correction to take place.
 
I think the problem is not the percentage of income we are forced to pay in taxes  but, rather, the fact that only a certain percentage of us are forced to pay. There is an inequity that is ever-increasingly hard to swallow. If everyone, regardless of income, were forced to pay the same rate how could one argue the fairness of it? There is no place for class warfare in an equitable tax system. I don't begrudge the wealthy their achievements but it does anger me that the wealthy can afford to legally wrangle their way out of tax obligations, which then makes my taxes higher.
Paying for public expenses in one thing - infrastructure, schools, defense are acceptable but, as stated elsewhere in this forum, entitlements and "pork" need to be reigned in.
It's not right to ask those who Choose to work hard and try to make a better life for themselves and their families to fork over and support the ever-increasing numbers of societal leeches who Choose to do nothing except stand around with their hands out waiting for their "entitlements".
 
We seem to be taxed up the Ass for everything , I personally cut back on spending  [ including music stuff which I'd never
get my money back out of ] but when you can't spend less or work more , what do you do ?  where are the gas & road taxes
going when the government borrows more money for what ?
I don't know or trust that's it's fair for who pay's what because it sure doesn't feel like it [ more like extortion ] BUT
even IF , we ALL made sacrifices and the hard decisions , I don't know that my kids will even see the benefits and I'm sure
I won't , there's a nice future to look forward to , perhaps the government will promote 65+ assisted dying pacs , that oughta
take care of them , get rid of all those homes & administration [ the government  , not the old people .
 
Spiritworks said:
It's not right to ask those who Choose to work hard and try to make a better life for themselves and their families to fork over and support the ever-increasing numbers of societal leeches who Choose to do nothing except stand around with their hands out waiting for their "entitlements".

If it were a matter of "choice" in real life this would be a valid argument. But the distribution of chances is blatantly inequal in today's US. It's very far away from a meritocracy. The "societal leeches" very often grow up in poverty and unstable living conditions, the jobs they would be able to do with their education get outsourced or are lost through technological advances, etc. And they know the system is rigged against them.

Equality of opportunity can only come about by a certain degree of equality of outcome. Denmark can show you the way.
 
living sounds said:
Spiritworks said:
It's not right to ask those who Choose to work hard and try to make a better life for themselves and their families to fork over and support the ever-increasing numbers of societal leeches who Choose to do nothing except stand around with their hands out waiting for their "entitlements".

If it were a matter of "choice" in real life this would be a valid argument. But the distribution of chances is blatantly inequal in today's US. It's very far away from a meritocracy. The "societal leeches" very often grow up in poverty and unstable living conditions, the jobs they would be able to do with their education get outsourced or are lost through technological advances, etc. And they know the system is rigged against them.

Equality of opportunity can only come about by a certain degree of equality of outcome. Denmark can show you the way.

Some interesting tidbits about Denmark that deserve mention.
(from wiki)
They are a net exporter of food and energy.
Public debt equal 39% of GDP (compared to >100% for US)
Denmark did not decide use the common currency (EURO) so have more control over their currency valuation for trade.
There is no official minimum wage (it is negotiated between companies and worker organizations aka unions).
Employers can hire and fire as needed (unlike much of Europe).
There are several hundred US owned companies in Denmark to take advantage of the beneficial tax treatment for holding companies.
Denmark has a high income tax rate 50+% but does not tax ownership (wealth).

I recall a few years ago posting favorably about Denmark's intelligent targeting of unemployed worker re-training for needed skills. Seems like common sense but they are notable for doing it.

We need to be careful about reading too much into the success or failure of a relatively small economy. It may not translate to similar results on a larger scale. I didn't see specific data on this but speculate they have a relatively well educated and homogeneous population.  I do see a few things worth expanding into more countries.

You can not mandate or legislate an outcome. There is still a small single digit percentage living in poverty and unemployment stops after 4 years there.  Seems like forever here. 

JR
 
Well, before the financial crisis hit the world economy Denmark's numbers looked even better (quite a bit, actually). And their unionization rate is above 75%, BTW, that's why no mandatory minimum wage is needed.

But there was a big economy that worked very well with high taxes, high unionization and lot's of other things deemed "socialist" now by the right-wingers - the US in the postwar/new deal/liberal era. That period followed similar deregulatory excesses than the ones we lieved through the last 30 years, BTW.

 
gyraf said:
Excuse me for my ignorance, but would it really be any problem to do in the US like e.g. Greece (was forced to) do - raising taxes to a level where it can pay the public expenses?

Maybe living in a country with relatively high income taxes (~50%, give or take a bit) has made me insensitive, but I fail to see the real problem in solving the budget puzzle...?

Back in the 50'es and 60'es, taxes were in this order of magnitude also in the US - and at the time it wasn't really a problem, was it?

Jakob E.

Greece just raised taxes again to something like 42% tax rate, in response to EU austerity requirements. This tax increase is on top of an already stagnant economy and may drive even more private economic activity underground (if that is possible).

One thing I agree about, if we (the US) plan to keep increasing our entitlement spending the way we are, we damn well better fund it some other way than borrowing. Or we will end up  exactly like Greece. Greece today is what happens after the lenders stop lending to you to support out of control unfunded government spending. 

At this point I'm inclined to say go ahead and raise taxes.. see what happens. I predict the projected revenue will not show up. There are many examples of the taxpayers changing their behavior in response to negative tax incentives.

As an example of a gross misnomer, the "affordable care act" does little (anything?) to make health-care more affordable. So expanding coverage to pretty much everybody, with less competition to reduce costs and drive efficiency will not end well.

We'll see...  more of it's cost impact kicks in next year.

I would much rather manage our budget on our terms, not wait until after the bond market decides to shut us down to deep austerity. Germany and France have a vested interested in keeping Greece (and southern Europe) mostly alive. China may not be as benign toward us, when we hit the borrowing wall. Right now it serves their interest to buy our debt, but we should not read that as a blank check to spend. 

JR

 
living sounds said:
JohnRoberts said:
Well which is it? Do deficits matter? Are you now agreeing with me, using Bush as an example for why they are bad?


It's pretty simple: Deficits matter only to the US right wing when they're not in power and where debt is incured for things that don't favour the plutocrat class around whose particular interests they have woven their economic ideology.

Deficits don't matter to most US foliticians.  They all want the party to continue, and they retire multi millionaires while the plebs argue who dunnit.  The spending reductions listed on that sheet, "sequester", were eliminated the last "government shutdown" go-around.

The "New Deal" era was not one of a big economy working well.  Where do you get this stuff?!?  It actually slowed recovery in multiple ways.

Denmark is the size of Queens and Brooklyn, or states Alabama and Colorado.  I'd like to see what happens if they scale-up by a factor of over 60 times, and lose their 89% cultural purity along the way.  The Jensens and Larsens keep it pretty tight there which makes for a stretch of a comparison.

Got a great sewage fountain story to tell some time. . .
Mike
 
I realize economics does not command the respect that Ohm's law gets around here, but government economists at the CBO just predicted that economic dis-incentives created by ACA, where lower income people receive higher levels of financial support, will cause something like 2.5M workers to drop out of the work force.

Yet one more unintended consequence of government trying to help us. This is exactly like the way high marginal tax rates reduce the incentive for wealthy to earn more, now we encourage poor people to not earn more too.. Not that's equality  ::) Perverse and just nutz.

JR 

PS: We could all use a sewage fountain story, especially if it's someone else's sewage.
 
OK.  The sheet that Dave linked reminded me of this.

I worked for a facility that was in a house.  One day there was a seeping spring of sewage at a rubber joint near the wall.  The plumber came and identified that the run to the street was clogged and sewage was backed-up in the waste lines up to the second floor.  He found a capped vertical pipe in the basement that we used to drain the house a bucket at a time outside in the street.  He called a dude to bring a super rooter.  He was outside and I was in the next room when I heard this massive gush and splashing.  Turned the corner and the vertical pipe was a spewing brown fountain of filth hitting the ceiling and splashing an amp rack Brystons, 480L, etc.  He capped the pipe and outside we realized that we shared a siamese connection pre clog with the flop house next door.  Some high pressure mud came through on a washing machine empty or something.  What a mess!  They did not want to root the pipe in fear of a 4 inch diameter spew hitting them.  They were pros and did it anyway without another spew.  The plumbers knew the right cleaners and we had the place sparkling by day's end.  Luckily the rack, powered off,  got splashed from the front and not the back.  The big thing that I learned is that roots can keep growing for decades after a bush or tree is cut and the stump ground down.
Hope I live to use a technology that can print image memories. . .
Mike
 
Come to think of it that post that woke up this thread does look a little suspicious. (payday loans.. zap)

I am always willing to talk about economics.

JR

 
John, if more politicians had your take on economics, we'd be in much better shape.
Re: Fiscal Cliff - aren't they threatening another shut down again? I think that will become the status quo.
 
Spiritworks said:
John, if more politicians had your take on economics, we'd be in much better shape.
Re: Fiscal Cliff - aren't they threatening another shut down again? I think that will become the status quo.

The "fiscal cliff" was an exaggerated threat about consequences of reducing federal government spending. While opinions surely vary, it looks like we have generally benefited from reduced spending (or reduced rate of increase). A new flap has started about talk of mothballing the carrier George Washington. People like talking about reducing our military footprint, but don't like to actually do it. If you look at the data coming out of Afghanistan as we reduce our troop presence there, the rate of civilian casualties (from Taliban attacks) is up huge. This will not likely end well. 

Yes we are due for yet another borrowing authority increase. Treasury is already making short term changes to last as long as three weeks from now before running short of funds. (Feb 27 is current crisis date). I actually had a hard time finding out what the actual current debt ceiling is, but it looks like $17T, that is a bunch.

As usual this is a ginned up argument since the money has already been committed to spend in other legislation, so the borrowing  is just to support that already decided upon spending. That said it is fair to not treat this too casually, but shutting down the government is arguably extreme. Apparently it is required to be extreme from time to time to get the other side's attention. The status right now is that the house wants concessions to raise the spending limit. The senate and WH are refusing to negotiate for now. The congress has a one week recess coming up so we do not have much time for a deal.  I have heard rumors about a longer term deal to remove this as an issue for a while. I suspect any deal to push this after the nov elections.

I do not like making political predictions but I doubt either side has the stomach for high profile political hardball now. The public does not pay attention until this somehow appears to involve them.

===

The real budget issue IMO is all the new spending that has been added in recent years and still sluggish economy which means less tax receipts than spending. As the nominal unemployment rate approaches 6.5% which would normally be a decent number, we are experiencing a 35 year low in labor participation rate. If we had pre-collapse labor participation rates the unemployment rate would be more like double digit.  So we always need to be careful about looking at single metrics in isolation.

This nominal unemployment number is one of the metrics the fed is supposed to monitor to gauge the nation's economic health. I'd say it too early to claim mission accomplished, but some probably will. I appreciate that this may read like me trying to spin numbers to look worse than they are, so draw your own conclusions. A few percent lower labor participation rate can have a similar impact on unemployment rates.   

The recent headline from the CBO that some 2.5M workers will withdraw from the work force is another glass half-full half-empty metric. Perhaps nice for them that many low paid workers will not feel the need to work, the economy suffers from less workers, engaged in gainful employment creating wealth, and paying taxes.

Of course opinions vary.

JR

PS: Just yesterday a neighbor told me I should run for mayor... nah... I'm too honest to be in politics. People do not want to hear that much truth.
 
It looks like a clean version of the debt ceiling bill may get a straight vote in the house today (no extra conditions tagged to it like spending concessions). The extension looks like for 1 year, kicking this into next year and out of the debate spotlight for the Nov elections.

JR

[edit] Passed the senate too while there was a certain lack of enthusiasm from folks not wanting to go on record voting for this while up for re-election later this year,.  Go figure... [/edit]

 

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