France tries to introduces law preventing police being filmed

[totoxraymond]

Due to public and  journalistic pressure etc., I see the law is now going to be completely rewritten.

No, they said they will rewrite one particular article. (The one everyone is talking about)

They said "rewrite" not "change" or "suppress". Same sh*t with different words imo.

The whole law is full pf dangerous bullshit by the way. Things like giving more power to municipal police (local police), more CCTVs, more personnal datas, more drones...

Yes, 1984...

We have a big problem with police forces in this country. Most of them think they're above the law. Brutes with too much power allready.

Those last years, we've seen more and more journalists being brutalized/arrested while doing their job.

There have been several deaths due to cops "maintien de l'ordre". No cop got arrested, their given medals.

As you can imagine, my heart is on the black side of things....

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Hi Thomas,
thanks for the perspective.  I hadn't looked at the issue beyond the headline I posted 
If it's as you say, and I have no reason to think otherwise, then my heart is in the same place as yours.

Solidarité mon ami

 

[abbey road d enfer]

No sentimentalism. French police is in a situation that is not too different than what it was in Italy at the Red Brigade times, with a dose of extreme-right provocation.
The big issue is the inaction of the Ministry of Justice. Criminals are released 24 hours after being caught, rogue police officers are not prosecuted, and the only response of the government is to create laws upon laws, that are  forgotten as soon as the media hype has worn out...
One should not forget that ultimately, the boss is responsible.

 

[JW]

If our lives (speaking of totalitarian west, as we're not ALL in France obviously) are going to be like Winston's (from 1984, not you Mr. Boogie) then why shouldn't all aspects of police officer's jobs, lives, aquaintances, texts, emails, phone calls, whereabouts, biology, history, thoughts, emotions, intent also be monitored? How about we the people assign them a personal drone that monitors them at all times? Even forcibly injects them with drugs to keep them in line.

That wouldn't be a violation or anything right? Because it's obviously totally fine for the public.

Kidding obviously. But F yeah. Film the police all the time. French should respond with all phones recording!

 

[abbey road d enfer]

If our lives (speaking of totalitarian west, as we're not ALL in France obviously) are going to be like Winston's (from 1984, not you Mr. Boogie) then why shouldn't all aspects of police officer's jobs, lives, aquaintances, texts, emails, phone calls, whereabouts, biology, history, thoughts, emotions, intent also be monitored? How about we the people assign them a personal drone that monitors them at all times? Even forcibly injects them with drugs to keep them in line.

That wouldn't be a violation or anything right? Because it's obviously totally fine for the public.

Kidding obviously. But F yeah. Film the police all the time. French should respond with all phones recording!

I agree. No testimony should be ignored.
Designating a person for popular revenge is what should be strongly repressed.
The big issue there is the arsonists who expose with intention of nuisance.
F...book et al have permitted that.

 

[rob_gould]

It's quite common these days on the streets of London for cyclists to have a GoPro camera mounted to their helmet, firstly to capture driving that endangers them and then the subsequent road rage which occurs when they tell a van driver to watch out.  YouTube has lots of these videos.  IMO this is a sign of things to come.

I foresee a future, not that far away, where it's completely normal to wear a camera the size of a button on your coat, and every encounter outside the house will be streamed and recorded directly to your phone or the cloud or whatever.  There will be no more 'your word against mine' because everything will be recorded. 

The repercussions of this, if it happens, are obviously mind boggling.  But I don't really see how it can't not happen.  When the technology is available and cheap enough, my guess is that it will become the norm very quickly. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

What we see going on in France right now looks like a logical progressions from the ongoing strategy to weaken police forces and destabilize civil order.

How can police possibly defend themselves against charges of being violent, when defending themselves from violent attackers?. That looks like a self fulfilling prophecy precipitated by trouble makers.

I have not paid close enough attention to how Macron has handled his local anarchists but appeasement generally just emboldens them.

I see Europe as the canary in the coal mine for possible future developments here.

I wish I saw an easy answer for this but it has been coming for some time. Good luck to our forum members in the mess already.

JR

PS: +1 all police should be wearing cameras with output streamed publicly. I do not know how much good that will do for civilians in real time, but perhaps for use as evidence after the fact.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

How can police possibly defend themselves against charges of being violent, when defending themselves from violent attackers?.

The problem here is police officers beating innocent bystanders, with racist insults. They were not the least threatened. They will be revoked, which is not the proper answer; they should be restricted to office work AND public service.
It's only a tiny fraction of the police forces that causes these problems. But they generate wholesale hatred from the population.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The problem here is police officers beating innocent bystanders, with racist insults. They were not the least threatened. They will be revoked, which is not the proper answer; they should be restricted to office work AND public service.
It's only a tiny fraction of the police forces that causes these problems. But they generate wholesale hatred from the population.

Don't discount the impact of social media turning one bad incident into a million bad impressions. There are bad apples in every barrel, and surely more than isolated incidents.

I need to shut up now pontificating about another country I don't live in. excusez-moi

JR 

 

[john12ax7]

Words of wisdom from Chris Rock regarding bad apples:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1h5sRgW6sQY

 

[Winston OBoogie]

There are bad apples in every barrel

This metaphor is often used in defending police misconduct as not being representative of the greater organization.
However, Benjamin Franklin (Poor Richard's Almanack -1736) stated: "the rotten apple spoils his companion."
Surely a more  accurate metaphor since, one single rotten (bad) apple in a barrel is indeed likely to spoil the surrounding good ones.

Perhaps this belonged in the "quotations" thread? 

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Words of wisdom from Chris Rock regarding bad apples:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1h5sRgW6sQY

Haha   You posted while I was writing my reply.  I believe we're saying the same thing except, your reply was better

 

[john12ax7]

This metaphor is often used in defending police misconduct as not being representative of the greater organization.
However, Benjamin Franklin (Poor Richard's Almanack -1736) stated: "the rotten apple spoils his companion."
Surely a more  accurate metaphor since, one single rotten (bad) apple in a barrel is indeed likely to spoil the surrounding good ones.

I don't know the origin but have also heard it as "one bad apple spoils the bunch". It is quite perplexing why bad apple is so often used as a defense.  The real implication is that it is imperative for good apples to stand up against and throw out the bad apples,  lest they become bad themselves.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Nice critical thinking...

Yes I used a cliche/truism. A small fraction of any group of professionals are incompetent, true about all professions. The statistical scarcity of bad actors is clouded by the viral amplification provided by social media. One million views or clicks does not equal one million offensive incidents.

In my judgement the majority of police worldwide are protecting and serving all of us. I can not speak about systemic problems in France with any first hand knowledge or authority. Paying some attention from from all this distance, it does not seem to me that the police are the problem, just the easy target.

If my history serves me France and Europe were a welcome respite from the racist culture in America one century ago. This recent drama seems to be a conflating of recent BLM defund police messaging with a somewhat different cultural situation on the ground there (not assimilated immigrant populations from middle east). 

Of course my version is not as funny as Chris Rock.

JR

 

[john12ax7]

Of course my version is not as funny as Chris Rock.

Do you disagree with the general premise? That there are some professions,  including police,  that necessitate a zero tolerance for bad apples?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Do you disagree with the general premise? That there are some professions,  including police,  that necessitate a zero tolerance for bad apples?

There should not be bad apples in any profession.

Police should all wear body cameras that live stream for public oversight.

I am not excusing bad behavior just trying to be realistic.

Watching recent history a number of high profile, riot and looting triggering incidents, have after closer legal inspection in the courts turned out to be less than originally trumpeted in the heat of viral social media. 

Of course opinions vary...

JR

 

[Winston OBoogie]

I don't know the origin but have also heard it as "one bad apple spoils the bunch". It is quite perplexing why bad apple is so often used as a defense.  The real implication is that it is imperative for good apples to stand up against and throw out the bad apples,  lest they become bad themselves.

It's quite an old proverb, Latin in origin I believe.  According to 'Oxford Proverbs'  the first written usage in the English language was around 650 years ago.  But yes, your explanation is correct as to its original intent.

Brain, heart et al. surgeons would be up there with pilots. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Alexa: search "bad apple"...

JR

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Alexa: search "bad apple"...

JR

You'll probably get a recipe for prison hooch apple cider

 

[totoxraymond]

The problem here is police officers beating innocent bystanders, with racist insults. They were not the least threatened. They will be revoked, which is not the proper answer; they should be restricted to office work AND public service.
It's only a tiny fraction of the police forces that causes these problems. But they generate wholesale hatred from the population.

This is mor of a systemic problem imo. Police have orders from above, and they execute.

Most of them are too happy to oblige, since they are racists scumbags.

Don't forget that Didier Lallement (Préfet de police de Paris,  basucally chief of police in Paris) compared himself to Gallifet on an interview to "Le Monde".

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_de_Galliffet

Of course there are good cops, but they're not in the streets. They are working on crimes and investigations.