G9 - D&R Console Connectivity

[sarakisof]

Hello everyone, i was given a nice old little D&R Series 200 Made In Holland mixing console !
It uses stereo balanced TRS female sockets for mic inputs. Is it safe to connect the XLR output from my G9 (Phantom input) to D&R's mic input?

 

[Whoops]

Why are you connecting a Mic Preamp into another Mic Preamp?

Why not connecting the G9 Line Level output into a D&R Line Level input?

 

[sarakisof]

D&R has no Phantom.
D&R line level is unbalanced as SM indicates. Want to mix analog using the D&R.

All i mean is DIY U87 --> DIY G9 phantom in --> D&R mic in. Using XLR to TRS cable.
Is this safe?

PS. Tiago, you have PM reply to your message.

 

[Whoops]

D&R has no Phantom.
D&R line level is unbalanced as SM indicates.

Unbalanced is completely fine in short distances.
And you would be connecting a Line Ouptut to a Lind input. That’s how I would use it

All i mean is DIY U87 --> DIY G9 phantom in --> D&R mic in. Using XLR to TRS cable.
Is this safe?

If Phantom Power is not an issue, then you are injecting Line Level into a Mic Level input. A Mic level input expects to receive a signal roughly 40dbs lower than Line Level, so you have to keep the Gain knob in the mixer at minimum, if there’s no PAD in the mixer this might not even be enough.

The only time I connect Line Level into a Mic Input is when I want to distort a signal, with some mic pres you get a nice Fuzz distortion. That’s actually how fuzz was discovered and was then replicated in Fuzz pedals.

PS. Tiago, you have PM reply to your message.

I have no PM from you in my inbox, I checked it

 

[RuudNL]

Very strange design; the gain control AFTER the microphone preamp!
(Maybe that is the reason why here in Holland D&R is known as 'Dutch Rubbish'

 

[sarakisof]

I have no PM from you in my inbox, I checked it

Forgot to push the post reply button, sorry.

If Phantom Power is not an issue, then you are injecting Line Level into a Mic Level input.

The thing that most scares me is if Phantom is an issue.

Very strange design; the gain control AFTER the microphone preamp!
(Maybe that is the reason why here in Holland D&R is known as 'Dutch Rubbish'

Heh, you're strict as always Mr. It's a sweet little console
Rudolph, is it safe to run a custom XLR to TRS cable from G9's out to Dutch Rubbish's mic in?
U87 -> Phantom -> G9-D&R

 

[Whoops]

Why are G9's outs line level?

All mic preamps output Line Level,
That’s what a Mic Preamp does, it amplifies Mic Level from a microphone into Line Level so the signal can be recorded. This is Sound Engineering 101

Rudolph, is it safe to run a custom XLR to TRS cable from G9's out to Dutch Rubbish's mic in?

I already answered to that in my previous post, why are you asking again?
Do you think I’m Lying?
Did you even read and tried to understand it?

 

[RuudNL]

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/D&R-200Series%20mix.pdf

Nice link, but nobody will be able to reach it, because it is a file on your own PC!

 

[sarakisof]

About mic pres: True, it's my misunderstanding.
About connectivity: To make it more simple. Let's say i had another mixer without phantom again but with XLRs instead of TRSs. In that case, until today, i thought i had to go from G9's XLR line out to that XLR mic input. Should i have used that mixer's balanced or unbalanced input?
Coming from digital world, i was thinking like i do in my Focusrite saffire interface. It has a multi XLR/TRS/TS input and only Line / Instr. Switch. So Line Mode gets both line and mic signals like dynamics (in terms of impedance it's like the mic input in D&R).
So i was just running G9 to this input in Line mode, but i was thinking that it was using mostly the "mic area of Line mode in terms of impedance".
So now that i have a dedicated mic input i thought it would be perfect to drive the signal there.

 

[Khron]

Your Saffire has combo inputs - the three XLR pins and the TRS pins are all separate contacts. Look up the datasheet / drawing for Neutrik NCJ9 or NCJ10 sockets. The line / instrument switch ONLY affects the 1/4" JACK input, and has NO effect on the XLR input (which is dedicated / hard-wired ONLY for microphone level signals).

Even though "most of the time", certain connectors are used for certain types of signals, they are not universal truths. Keep in mind that connectors are "dumb", just pieces of plastic and metal, that don't know (or care) what kind of signals they are used for. XLR connectors are used for microphone level signals, line level signals, AES/EBU digital signals, DMX signals. You wouldn't connect a microphone into an AES/EBU input just because it happens to have the same connector, would you?

In the case of the G9, it's right there in the name - XLR ***LINE*** out. Why would that mean that you should (?) connect that to an input that expects a ***MICROPHONE*** level signal?

Most line-level *outputs* expect the input impedance of the device "downstream" to be in the 10-100Kohm range. They might not be too happy (read: likely to distort / clip sooner than normal) when driving a 1-2Kohm impedance (as is quite usual for mic preamps).

 

[Whoops]

Most line-level *outputs* expect the input impedance of the device "downstream" to be in the 10-100Kohm range. They might not be too happy (read: likely to distort / clip sooner than normal) when driving a 1-2Kohm impedance (as is quite usual for mic preamps).

Just to add up to what Khron is saying, it's not only a impedance problem, it's also a voltage problem.

As I previously told you Microphone level is roughly 40dbs lower than Line Level.
Microphone or “mic” level is in the region of 0.001 volts (1 millivolt) to 0.01 volts (10 millivolts) while Line Level will be around or more than 1 Volt.

So you are injecting Line Level, for example 1VAC in an input that is designed to receive up to 0.01VAC.
Distortion/Clipping will occur

Coming from digital world, i was thinking like i do in my Focusrite saffire interface. It has a multi XLR/TRS/TS input and only Line / Instr. Switch. So Line Mode gets both line and mic signals like dynamics (in terms of impedance it's like the mic input in D&R).

It's nothing to do with digital world or analog, you doing it wrong both with your soundcard and with the mixer.
All of this is in the analog realm anyway.
Like Khron said, your sound card Line Level input uses the Jack connector (center connector of the XLR combi)
The XLR part of the connector is the input of the Microphone Preamp, where you should connect microphones, which output mic level.

You should search online and read about "Difference between Mic Level and Line Level", also search for "what is a microphone preamp?"
You are missing some sound engineering basic knowledge that I think would help you a lot in achieving your goals

 

[sarakisof]

So by driving G9's line output to Saffire line via XLR to XLR is wrong?
And what I'm supposed to do? Make an XLR to TRS cable and Saffire will use only Tip Sleeve? Why are G9's outs XLRs then?
Gosh i have been recorded some of my discography so far by the wrong way.

 

[Whoops]

Khron already explained that...

XLR is only a connector and is used for many different signals
Professional equipament normally uses XLR both for Balanced Mic Level and also Balanced Line Level
Semi-Pro or hobbyist equipament uses JACK TRS for Balanced Line Level

Your G9 has the connector that professional equipament uses for Line Out
Your Focusrite saffire interface is Semi-Pro and hobbyist equipament so it uses JACK TRS for the Line Level, there's size contraints also in how many XLR connectors you can fit in a small case.

Gosh i have been recorded most of my discography so far by the wrong way.

I'm pretty sure about it, and I'm pretty sure also that if you study a bit more and learn at least the basics of recording you will improve a lot your recordings

 

[sarakisof]

In this case of driving a balanced line level signal into D&R's unbalanced (but TRS due to its alternative usage as insertion point effects etc.) input, what do you recommend?
Running an XLR to TRS, XLR to TS and solder gnd/- phase together or XLR to TS and leave -phase floating?

 

[Whoops]

XLR to JACK TS
XLR PIN2 to JACK Tip
XLR PIN3 to JACK Sleeve
XLR PIN1 to JACK Sleeve

 

[sarakisof]

Thanks Whoops

 

[vintageampfixer]

placing the level control before a preamp gives the maximum possible headroom in the preamp stage whereas a level control after the stage tends to make signal/noise figures look better because any noise is also attenuated when the level control is turned down.