Good first studio preamps on a (tight) budget

[deleteduser]

Setting aside for the moment any question of veracity as it relates to that post, I will now and forevermore blame a transformerless preamp whenever I sing out of tune.

you would be suprised. obviously you don't know what you're talking about or doing if you literally sing into transformerless pres. probably you don't realize your recording mechanism is playing back at a different speed and pitch than while you are recording. do you have a varispeed clock setup etc probably not this issue exists even with tape machines. why do I even try you people aren't worth me explaining it to you. deafies . yall some deaf people thats cute deaf people on an audio forum who aren't even musicians they just play on their midas X32's all day and tell everyone they have a midas. thats great. oh. one thing you can do to improve your digital recordings is use one of those multitrack digital things with the faders and the little boss type 9v power . you know those zoom or tascam or korg or fostex or whatever digital portastudio. and run it on a 45W light bulb like a guitar amp limiter helps even out the reconstructed pitches and tempos. problem is none of those things have varispeed I guess yall are all lost causes.

no, no . it only took me my whole life to figure this stuff out. forget about it. hayes and horowitz is the extent of electrical knowledge. everyone move along nothing to see here back to your mullard handbooks and electronics bibles....

thats also the main issue with vintage transformers. thats why you need a variable pad like the H pad before a sta-level or something or the output control on the EMI 436 compressor except on the input. so you can vary the input impedance and shake off the transformer resonance if it gets in the way of the performance.


edit 3. God you people are so dumb. sorry mods. please forgive me I'm trying to turn these pokemon into level 2 pokemon or whatever

no wonder all the music sucks these days and the gear is worse

 

[gyraf]

Much complaining, huh Saul?

You're tending to clutter up quite a few threads with pointless tl:dr rants..



/Jakob E.

 

[Newmarket]

If I was going to buy an SSL fusion or neve MBT the first thing I would do is rip out the power supply and rip out all the LED's . but you guys know better than me: I"m just a stupid louisiana crackhead so F-it.

Who's going to break it to him that those things won't work if you "rip out the power supply" ???

 

[amplexus]

I’ll just leave this here.

 

[DFischer]

It's not always easy to get a sense of who you are arguing with on a forum. Before things get any uglier, I'd suggest checking out Saul's YouTube channel. He's clearly coming at things with a different approach than most of us here. There's probably not a lot of overlap, so there's no reason to go dark with this.

 

[JMan]

If Saul is not a bot and is in fact a real person, I don't want to make his life harder, even if it does seem like he's just trying to bait us. And since he did say in the midst of one of those essays that we're making fun of him, I at least wanted to say that when I posted this...

Setting aside for the moment any question of veracity as it relates to that post, I will now and forevermore blame a transformerless preamp whenever I sing out of tune. (Err, that is, when the differentially balanced electronic input forces me to sing out of tune against my will).

...I wasn't trying to make fun of him, I was making fun of my singing. I don't need justonically resonating fixed-key harmonic distortion from my garbage transformerless preamp to sing out of tune, thank you very much, I can do that all on my own! Just ask my fans neighbors.

 

[Rowboat]

Hey I'm just popping back in here to say this: regarding this exact statement and philosophy.... its a compelling one. The issue is in reality that transformerless, or "differentially balanced electronic inputs", and or any other electronically, directly-connected configuration is inherently worse, from a scientific performance perspective, as well as a musical one:


my primary issue with transformerless preamps is that they have a definite, inescapable tendency to resonate, distort, or otherwise alter the motion of the diaphragm in a correllated, harmonic manner, justonically. So regardless of the music, the input signal, the scale, this thing will ALWAYS be "resonating" in a locked justonic "key" which rears its head as the fifth of its resonance, complete with b3, M3, and b7 harmonics being the most obvious conflicts. This is very problematic for an auditioned performance, where the singer is constantly trying to adjust to this "microphone scale" which has no correllation to the intended result. How does this happen? Mostly?

Because the high impedance of the input approaches an open circuit to the microphone diaphragm (whether transformer output mic or direct to capsule...) and causes increased distortion, as well as percieved increased signal level. Imagine a microphone connected to nothing, and imagine a microphone shorted between pins 2+3. In the open circuit case, flyback, increased voltage, decreased current, and increased diaphragm nodes will exist much like hitting a drum and letting it ring. In the shorted condition, the "electrons" will "race around" and stop the diaphragm from resonating, or moving, much like a sail on a ship, dampened, like putting fabric over a snare drum. So from an electrical engineer's perspective, he will always prefer his microphones to be open circuit, because this generates the most voltage, which is the easiest possible charachteristic to measure with a DMM, and he will feel congratulated in himself for increased output on the only signal he ever microphones: a sine wave; which is also the easiest possible condition for any audio equipment to reproduce.

On the other hand, transformer inputs will resolve a lower voltage than differential electronic inputs: but will do so with percieved infinite current availability.... this is a huge, notable, non-overlookable electronic phenomenon, to be able to provide the perception of infinite current. I can't go into more details about this , but this is very important that I will glaze over.

EDIT 2:


wow I just wrote this huge dissertation on the whole thing about how transformers would improve the whole scenario. and literally on the last paragraph I hit some accidental button and it all got lost I hate my life. My suggestion to OP is to buy a bunch of transformers and buffer the inputs of the preamp with some SPST or DPDT switches to make or break the ground. truly guys my whole thing that I typed was truly brilliant and I lost it all I hate my life

Aww man, don't feel so awful! Still a great analysis.

 

[deleteduser]

call me dumb or whatever I cant post on forums cause literally everytime it goes like this and people just clash against my philosophy even when "im trying to blend in"

oh I forgot to mention the thing about taking all the led's and indicator lights out of the circuit but trust me that makes a difference. nothing sounds worse than a segmented LED meter bridge. cause every click of the thing turning on and off.... anyway. like people who take those old recievers and remove the incandescent VU meter bulbs and replace them with LED's dummies there goes your vintage sound out the window

edit : also. the shape of the case is the most important thing.....for sound. anyway. forget this noise who wants to play music??? does anyone even play music anymore or its just a weird loser hobby now

edit again: I guess my point is: there is a lot of opportunity in the world for things to be improved for small cost or simply with simple alternate configurations outside of convention. and like I dont have all the solutions but I'm just saying. when you take everything for granted, then youre just copying other people taking things for granted from people who actually made discoveries 50 years ago: and the audio industry is a perfect example of this because everything is just a clone of a clone of a clone of someone who actually designed something.... and on one hand I just want to say "yeah none of this matters its all just stupid music equipment that doesn't matter anyway." but on the other hand; this is all of electrical engineering. is just hooking things up the simplest way possible and claiming its finality or absolution. and when you start to look at greater industry, computing, power transmission, etc.... like. they're all doing the same exact thing and wasting how many millions in inefficiency all the time every day. so in a sense it does matter, I just believe audio can be a proving ground for greater optimization or electrical understanding. In a small scale sense that breakthroughs in audio could reach greater markets... but the audio industry itself thinks that innovation ended in 1970 so essentially there is no hope for the world I guess. like the Riot blockchain people. sure, the whole thing is a waste of energy from its needless existence. but also, their physical setup is one of the leakiest, noisiest, most inefficient configurations possible. simply by hooking their blockchain gizmos up properly they would probably save 20% of their energy idk. probably more actually. like the google "green facility." where their setup is literally a separate psu for every motherboard, rather than a couple giant DC supplies which feed banks of cards... I'm just saying. OP. dont go spend money on transformerless millenia preamps cause they're garbage physically manifested, like most of this new junk for sale.

 

[rock soderstrom]

call me dumb or whatever I cant post on forums cause literally everytime it goes like this and people just clash against my philosophy even when "im trying to blend in"

At first I thought you needed to work on your "blend in" skills but after watching your Youtube videos I think a tuner for your guitar is more important. Rock on Saul!

 

[JMan]

The cognitive dissonance created by holding the view of "you can't make anything of value if you have equipment that doesn't meet my impossibly narrow qualifications" and "forget this noise who wants to make music." Boy oh boy. But I will say this, Saul, and I mean it - you are clearly passionate and interested in pursuing high standards, and whether you believe it or not, that's something you have in common with many people here. You have a very poor grasp of how to talk to other people about it, but I applaud your dedication.

 

[SubSpec]

I'm just saying. OP. dont go spend money on transformerless millenia preamps cause they're garbage physically manifested

While I wouldn't go that far, I will say that after years of lusting after a Millenia HV-3 I was deeply disappointed when I recently acquired one. One channel works and one doesn't (or rather is noisy and has a few db less gain), but that can be fixed.

For the one that works though, I expected and hoped that this clean and fast pre would provide some tangible improvement over my True Precision 8 or Cranborne Camden (or onboard Antelope pres for that matter). To my ears and tastes it does not.

Further, when asking for some simple measurement points and values to aid in fixing the other channel I was told they don't provide schematics (which I didn't ask for) but they would be happy to take my $400 plus shipping to replace a few caps...

Anyway, this is no less tangential than anything else in this thread, but to the original point, there are some really good pres at a wide range of price points, and sometimes the more high-end and widely lauded options may not do it for you anyway.

 

[Barry Hufker]

I think Millennia preamps were a huge improvement "for their time." IME the Gordon preamps (beginning with my using the Models 4 and 5) were a great improvement over the Millennia I had been using. In trying to research reviews of the HV-3, many of those date back as far as 2006. I am confident those models have been surpassed since then.

 

[jeremynothman]

I think Millennia preamps were a huge improvement "for their time." IME the Gordon preamps (beginning with my using the Models 4 and 5) were a great improvement over the Millennia I had been using. In trying to research reviews of the HV-3, many of those date back as far as 2006. I am confident those models have been surpassed since then.

Improvement upon what would be the question for me?
I think that when it comes to preamp choice, taste is clearly a huge factor.

While I certainly don’t think that Millenia HV3 are bad preamps per se, whenever I use them, I walk away with the thought “oh, it made that source sound quite hard, didn’t it?”, exemplified most with mics that I’ve already found quite hard-sounding, like Brauner VM1.

I don’t really know if I can get behind Saul’s arguments, but I do know from years of experience that I like preamps with a transformer balanced input; I guess I like the sound of some extra distortion down in the low end, and perhaps they already do a little bit of my work in reducing dynamic. Seemingly not everyone wants that, but even when recording jazz or classical, I’ve felt like transformer balanced pres with colour and bloom are more my thing. I think it’s all just taste, it’s okay that not everyone has the same one.

The comments about the Gordons certainly make me curious, but I think they don’t make me $4000 curious. I’d be more likely to build up a few channels of Quad8 preamps and enjoy myself.

 

[Piedmont Audio]

Hey Jill! I would recommend having a "hero channel" for lead vocals and/or anything you can track separately, and use the Focusrite for the rest. A DIY 2-slot 500 series chassis, an AML ez1073, and the DIYRE Pultec would make a great combination at a reasonable price point.

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

I've used a lot of different sought after preamps from tube (ex REDD47, V72, V76 (even the M)) to solid state with transformers (ex 1073, API, Quad Eight) to solid state transformerless (Crane Song, Forssell, Gordon). In short, the older designs are lovely but even the "reference models" colour the sound a lot. Crane Song Flamingo is an amazing preamp and one of my favourites but when it comes to true stereo recordings Gordon is unbelieveable.

To answer the question in the thread - I would aim for 500 series. Find your price range and read about the different alternatives. Aim for a used one for the best deal. An old small console that you get for a good price is often cheap builds with unnecessary routing. Big risk that it won't work properly. Same problem with racking channels. Do not buy cheap tube stuff. Building high quality tube gear is expensive and relies a lot on the components such as transformers, chokes and not at least the tubes.

 

[jeremynothman]

I've used a lot of different sought after preamps from tube (ex REDD47, V72, V76 (even the M)) to solid state with transformers (ex 1073, API, Quad Eight) to solid state transformerless (Crane Song, Forssell, Gordon). In short, the older designs are lovely but even the "reference models" colour the sound a lot. Crane Song Flamingo is an amazing preamp and one of my favourites but when it comes to true stereo recordings Gordon is unbelieveable.

To answer the question in the thread - I would aim for 500 series. Find your price range and read about the different alternatives. Aim for a used one for the best deal. An old small console that you get for a good price is often cheap builds with unnecessary routing. Big risk that it won't work properly. Same problem with racking channels. Do not buy cheap tube stuff. Building high quality tube gear is expensive and relies a lot on the components such as transformers, chokes and not at least the tubes.

No question that old transformer balanced pres (especially with inductor-based EQs) colour the sound a lot. I wouldn't pretend that Quad Eight, Electrodynes or RFZ pres are producing a pristine, clear sound, but they will sound FAT. And that's usually something I'm digging, especially for vocals and bass. If I get the chance, I'd love to hear the Gordons! For in-betweeners, I am a fan of the John Hardy/990 based pres. I'm just not sure if having everything sound so "fast" is my taste.

I think this suggestion of a 500-series and second-hand is great!

Also, while I find that a lot of mic pre modelling/saturation plugins do cool things (and I gladly use them when I want that effect), I haven't yet found that they magically turn a clean pre into an Electrodyne.

 

[SoundsOfJill]

Alright, I didn't expect this thread to go this way.

I won't say I'm more confused, but I kind of am. Odd arguments aside I think I got a good grasp on my options?
I'll keep things in mind and focus on my current production gigs for now. Consider my question answered and issue solved.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer.

 

[13engrsapper]

Hello everyone,

I've been working from my home studio for about two years now. Picking up various small gigs in A/V and also working on my own music as an aside. Over time my needs have been shifting more and more from just editing, mixing and mastering to recording instruments and vocals for music production. I'm starting to get my first clients as a music producer, and seeing that I will get a bit of money from that I figured I might as well start planning on ways to expand my studio.
I'm doing fairly alright on my mic locker, in great part thanks to the DIY knowledge I have gathered here. And while I would love to have some outboard processing stuff, I feel like it's not my main priority.
My main struggle right now is getting enough input gain, especially for my dynamic mics. And also having some nice coloration to go with my numerous transformer less condenser mics.

I need preamps. Badly. The preamps of my 18i20 are cute and all but don't exactly cut it. I've considered the following options:
- Finding an old analog mixer with good enough preamps on it
- 500 series preamp kits
- Cheap tube preamps from studio projects
- Rackable pres (octopre, artTube optotube 8 etc.)
- Learning to make custom PSUs for console channel strips and rack mount them (I've seen a few of those around secondhand sites)

But I have no idea what is the best idea of them all. I don't have much room for error financially, and I'd rather ask the opinion of people who have potentially owned several of these solutions beforehand.
I'm especially curious of the 500series stuff. It all seems nice for DIYers but the costs of rack chassis for those are a bit scary.

Thank y'all in advance for your help.

Take a look around for a vintage Fonia WAB preamp. They are relatively affordable and sound excellent, just don't tell anyone I said so. I am still buying every one I can find when I have the spare change. A friend from Poland has one or two up on Reverb I think. They have plenty of gain for dynamic mics, they are transformer coupled with very nice transformers, fully discreet, and are of through-hole construction. Additionally, they are easy to rack and maintain. One of the x76 preamps may suite you too, but the cost is about double or more for a module and the x76 series things are not as much fun to work on.

Shhh

-T

 

[SamFellButHesOK]

Alright, I didn't expect this thread to go this way.

I won't say I'm more confused, but I kind of am. Odd arguments aside I think I got a good grasp on my options?
I'll keep things in mind and focus on my current production gigs for now. Consider my question answered and issue solved.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer.

Have you looked at any second hand UAD Apollo Twins on reverb or the newer Volt? If you’re looking for color options, that ecosystem is a great one for small studio. Also can function for mixing.

Otherwise/also I would invest in cloud lifters for more clean gain on your signal till you get more gigs and can upgrade further. A Shure SM7B for instance takes a lot of gain and some of the Focusrite interface preamps can feel like you’re cranking them. I believe for your question and budget this is what makes the most sense.

500 series are a great option, but it’s a slippery slope of cost for your tight budget. What you pay for is what you get, so I don’t recommend going “cheap/cost effective” on a fredenstein 500 rack because the power supply isn’t as reliable like the Neve, API, CAPI etc. when you start populating the rack with different modules their requirements vary, some demand more than others this can cause underperformance and/or possible damage to your modules. So that’s a later investment when you’re financially ready to do so. 500 series racks you want to “future proof” where you don’t have to make further upgrades/replacements.

 

[cpsmusic]

If the original poster is interested in "colour" then maybe these could be a useful addition to the existing interface:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/tierra-audio-flavours

I haven't tried them so YMMV.

Cheers!