Grid stopper value

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johnheath

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
890
Location
Sweden
Hi…

I am building a copy of the "12SN7/ 5687" slow blow preamp and the schematic doesn't call for any grid stoppers and as "expected" there were some serious oscillation when fired up.

I added a couple of 1k grid stoppers on one of the channels and the oscillation disappeared  … almost. Going from severe "dadadadadadadadada" to a very high pitched squeal like…"ssssssssiiiiiiiiiii" (you get the picture)

This last sssssiiiii just comes and goes so I figured that i am close to the edge to get rid of this oscillation problems.

Question: Am I correct to say that a higher value on the grid stopper will stop the high pitched noise? But what values will alter the over all sound quality of the preamp?

Can anybody please explain this to me? Generally =)

Thanks

/John
 
You must calculate the noise contribution of the grid stopper as well as the LP filter caused by the tube stray grid capacitance. So : negligeable noise contribution and cutoff frequency way above the audio band.
But if the resonance is in the audio frequencies I'd rather check the wiring first... are the grid wires shielded? Does the whine change when you mess up with the wires ?
 
Well… the calculations might be a problem since I am not familiar to formulas or what not.

The wires are shielded and adding a couple of 2k2 grid resistors stopped the high pitched wining completely.

After reading about it on the internet… yeay =) I found that the frequencies affected are way above what the human ear can hear… I might have misunderstood it all though =)

Thanks
 
> as "expected" there were some serious oscillation

? ? ? A 6SN7 isn't a hot-rod tube. We do not "expect" oscillation. Neat layout prevents oscillation. Inputs running near outputs will oscillate fine, and slogging the circuit "to prevent" that will also prevent the audio.
 
stopper blurb>

"
Grid Resistors - Why Are They Used?


General

    If you look at the schematic of a typical guitar amplifier, you will notice that there is a resistor in series with the grid of the first tube, usually around 68K or so, and there is also a resistor in series with the grid of the power tubes, usually 1.5K or 5.6K, and you may occasionally see very large value resistors, such as 470K or greater, in series with tube grids in high-gain preamps.  Some amplifiers have no such grid resistors, and occasionally people will recommend removing them to supposedly "increase the gain" of that stage.  What is the purpose of these resistors, and should you remove them?

Reasons for the resistors

    These resistors, which are commonly called "grid stoppers",  are not put on the control grid of the tube for signal level attenuation purposes; rather, they act as a very high frequency low-pass filter in conjunction with the input capacitance of the triode (which is the sum of the grid-to-cathode capacitance and the Miller capacitance, and can get as high as 100pF or more).  In the normal operating mode of a vacuum tube, the grid is biased negatively with respect to the cathode.  Because of this, there is no current flow into the grid element, and it looks like a very high impedance circuit node.  This means that there can be little or no midband attenuation of the input signal, because the voltage divider formed by the series resistor and the high input impedance of the tube is very small.  For all practical purposes, the attenuation is negligible at midband, so there is no "increase in gain" by removing these resistors.  Attenuation only occurs at the higher frequencies, above the frequency breakpoint caused by the series resistance and the input capacitance.

    The grid resistor accomplishes the following things:

            It helps prevent high frequency parasitic oscillation in the tube itself
            It helps prevent radio frequencies from getting into the input stage, where they can be rectified and lowpass filtered (AM detection) and become audible at the amplifier output
            It can limit grid current when the tube is driven into the positive grid region, which helps in preventing "blocking" distortion

Where to put the resistors

    In order to take advantage of the parasitic suppression benefits of these grid resistors, they must be placed as close as possible to the socket pin of the tube, preferably soldered directly to the pin with a very short lead.  The resistor should be placed after the grid-to-ground resistor (usually 1 Meg or so), to avoid attenuation and to keep the signal path short. If the resistor is connected in series with the input jack and before the 1 Meg grid resistor, there is a small loss of the input signal, although, in most cases the attenuation is not enough to be concerned with (0.94 times for a 68K grid stopper and a 1 Meg grid resistor), and in amplifiers with a high and low level input, the grid stoppers also serve as attenuators.  When designing an amplifier, it is better to use separate resistors for input attenuation purposes in order to be able to locate the grid stoppers as close to the input grid pins as possible, rather than mounting them on the input jacks.

How large should they be?

    The grid resistor value typically varies from as low as 1.5K to as high as 470K.

    Most output stages use relatively small grid resistors, such as the 1.5K seen on the grids of 6L6 tubes in most Fenders, and the 5.6K seen on the grids of EL34 tubes in most Marshalls.  In general, the grid resistor at the grid of the power tubes can be as high as 56K to 100K before any noticeable loss of high frequencies occurs.  Higher values can help in reducing "blocking" distortion as noted above, and can also take some of the "edge" off of an overly brittle sounding output stage.  If the resistor value is made too low, it may not be enough to prevent parasitic oscillations, and the amplifier may exhibit instability in the higher frequency range.  This may or may not be audible.  Symptoms of oscillations include: high-pitched "squeal",  glowing plates at "safe" bias currents, harsh treble response, lack of power, undesirable overtones, and unusual frequency response which makes the amp sound funny.  Note that power tubes have a specification for maximum resistance that can be in series with the grid terminal before the tube becomes unstable due to grid current.  The maximum allowable resistance is larger in cathode biased circuits than it is in fixed bias circuits because the cathode bias provides some "self-limiting" protection against bias runaway.  The total resistance is the sum of the series grid resistor and the bias feed or "grid-to-ground" resistances, so if the max spec is 300K, for example, and there is a 220K bias feed resistor, the largest grid resistance that can safely be used is 80K.  Of course, in practice, tubes should not be run that close to the edge of their specifications, to insure reliability.

    The grid resistor on the preamp stages typically ranges from 0 to 68K, although very large values, such as 470K, are sometimes used in high-gain preamps to shape the frequency response and prevent "blocking" distortion in the preamp section under heavy overdrive conditions.    The Miller capacitance of a typical 12AX7 is around 151pF, so the upper frequency response -3dB cutoff point of a stage using a 68K grid resistor is around 15.5kHz.  The frequency response drops to around 2.2kHz if a 470k grid resistor is used.  This "free" response rolloff can be used to tame the "buzziness" of high-gain preamp stages without having to add additional rolloff capacitors.  Perhaps the most important grid resistor is the one that goes to the grid of the very first stage, right after the input jack.  This resistor is the one that prevents oscillations and pickup of radio stations and other noise due to long or poorly-shielded cables.  It is not usually a good idea to eliminate this resistor.  Ideally, it should be soldered directly to the grid pins of the socket, with very short leads."

little more technical>

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/gridstopper.html

deja vu  deja vu

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=56691.0




 
As a rule, you only need a grid stopper if you want to deliberately curtail the frequency response (as in a guitar amp) or you want to prevent parasitic oscillations.

Parasitic oscillations only occur with high gm tubes. Most small signal audio tubes, including the 12SN7, are low gm tubes and are not prone to parasitic oscillation. The only small signal tube you might where you might need it is the 6DJ8 family which has a relatively high gm at some operating points.

If you have parasitic oscillation with a low gm tube then the cause is more likely to be be d poor layout or power supply decoupling. You description of the oscillation as "dadadadadadadadada" sounds to me more like motor boating which is usually caused by poor power supply decoupling or badly implemented negative feedback.

Cheers

Ian
 
Ok - thank you guys. I have nothing to argue about with you so... perhaps poor layout in the preamp.

Just for the record I used the sam PSU as in previous builds and it is fine and at this time I was just altering the preamp itself  and I had serious problems with oscilliaton and a couple of 1k's for grid stoppers took away the "motorboating" or "dadadadada" but there was still this high squealing sound wich was killed when changing to 2k2 for gridstoppers.

Good or bad I don't know as long as it still sounds good .

As !expected" was an expression from me because I tried to remove the gridstoppers on another build and I got the same effect... thereby "ecpected".

Usually I expect everything to work perfectly the first time but usually I am dissapointed about it =)

Thanks though

/John
 
12sn7/5687 slowblow mic pre,  works the way schematic is.
doesnt need anything else.
 
Well i built one and was not that satisfied with the sound … thereby the altering. The chassi is a bit crowded and little room for "making way" for stuff … no big deal really. It is not a keeper.

I am about to try a one channel version soon and of course my experience from this and other builds will play a significant role then.

I was just curious about the values of the grid stopper … when used.

It is all p2p and maybe that is one part of the problem… but my guess is the too small chassi… causing everything to be too close to each other.

Regards

/John
 
i build several P2P slowblow so far, they all sound excellent.
i use them everyday.
 
johnheath said:
as "expected" there were some serious oscillation when fired up.

if you stick with the schematic,  u will have no oscillation, no noise, just clean beefy sound.
 
Personal experience has not ever met a grid stopper in preamp, and I have a metric shitload of vintage preamps, serviced an equal quantity more.  I'd definitely look at the layout.  I see grid stoppers in power amp output stages and limiter output stages (also power amps).  If the simple small grid stopper is doing the job, that may be good enough, but ideally it shouldn't be needed. 
 
I think the problem might be in the PSU… the discussion around the slow blow calls for very big large cap values and an enormous choke and of course it creates a nice steady B+…. mine is a bit more cheap…isn. Not bad but maybe not enough for a pair of 12SN7 and 5687??? It works wonderful for a 2 x 12AU7 in exactly the same chassi and layout… that is why I wanted to build it with a 12SN7 and a 5687 since there was a big fuzz about them two last tubes being so much better sound wise.
 
I do not think so but still there is some issues with oscillation in the latter configuration… nothing in the first.

I guess it has something to do with electrons and switches and so???
 
double check your 5687 connections... easy to mix pins on 5687...

PSU doesnt need choke... and doesnt need extra large caps.

there is an excellent educational  topic about "choke values and why"
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=57310.msg730352#msg730352



 
motorboating can be a tough one,

cause is always the same, pos feedback,

start with pwr supply, bigger caps, experiment with location of caps and pwr supply grounds,  no luck? look at layout, how long are your grid wires?  they can act as antennas, keep them short, raise them above the chassis so they do  not couple with the sheet metal, run them 90 degrees to B+ wires, run B+ wires on chassis so as to create a cap of a few pf which will couple hi freq osc to ground,



 
Kambo… Yes I guess it is just as easy to mix the pins on a 5687 as it would be on a 12SN7??? I know what I am doing there.

CJ…I guess that you are in the ball park… checking the leads, angles and such but now I face the problem with a too small chassi… and as I say It is not a keeper… so next time I will make a larger chassis and have more possibilities to arrange stuff in a better way.

I know about the choke and stuff it was just said to "stick with the schematic" and slow blow is as easy as it gets so I did just that but I did not follow the same PSU with 4000mF/400V in total and a 10H/150mA choke… no I did not =)

All I was saying was that the grid stoppers made my day in this specific preamp in this specific chassis and with this specific PSU and all… =)


 
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