Harvey Weinstein et al

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mattiasNYC

Guest
So, more and more allegations are dished out at various people, and their employers are acting almost immediately. Kevin Spacey was accused and has been let go of future productions of his show, I think today there were two more people that were affected a similar way.

So what I'm wondering is if a mere accusation is sufficient to take this type of action, and if an admission of guilt instead would be.

And further more are they immoral for thinking that they can do anything just because they're a star, and they won't even wait for permission by the victims....

???

?
 
I don't know how it is in NY but california is an at will state. An employer has a right to fire an employee at any time without a reason.  Although one is usually given to cover bases for a law suit, one is not needed.
 
The question wasn't about what was legal, but what was moral or ethical, and what should be the case.
 
mattiasNYC said:
So, more and more allegations are dished out at various people, and their employers are acting almost immediately. Kevin Spacey was accused and has been let go of future productions of his show, I think today there were two more people that were affected a similar way.

So what I'm wondering is if a mere accusation is sufficient to take this type of action, and if an admission of guilt instead would be.

And further more are they immoral for thinking that they can do anything just because they're a star, and they won't even wait for permission by the victims....

???

?
Kind of on the same theme the education department is withdrawing Obama era sexual assault guidelines, that created a guilty until proven innocent bias on college campuses. This will allow colleges to better balance the rights of the accused while cutting down on  sexual misbehavior. 
========

Dumping Spacey was probably just business, and his apology was not very convincing (doesn't remember but apologize anyhow, doesn't sound like even he thinks he is innocent). He may have more embarrassing skeletons in his closet. Not unlike Colin Kaepernick whose football skills almost don't matter at this point (maybe if he was a really good player, owners would tolerate more mischief)  but he has become an icon for disrespecting national institutions and that bad messaging will cost the owners viewership and money.

I think it is about time for Weinstein to face his accusers (and accusers face him when their fear of retribution is reduced by their strength in numbers.)  This seems a little like the Cosby case with more victims coming out of the woodwork as they get public support. Unfortunately there are often statute of limitations (time limits) so many old cases have become moot.

Lest anyone think these are isolated cases, the term "casting couch" originated with the rise of the motion picture industry over a century ago.  Hopefully these recent events will cause a groundswell of moral indignation and many of the worst actors (producers , directors) will retire or be drummed out of the industry.

This is not isolated to the movie industry but was tolerated there for much too long. Numerous high level business executives have been terminated because of inappropriate sexual behavior toward subordinates. This is ultimately a sex and power thing, not simple rational behavior.

It is part of our human programming for men to want to plant their DNA anywhere it can grow... and for women to be attracted to powerful men that can protect their offspring and them.  This all operates on a subliminal level and we are socialized to suppress the bad behavior that occurs when these tendencies are not inhibited. 

Rich and powerful people think they are smarter, and handsomer than they are. It is too easy to get accustomed to always getting your way.

This is one of the few recent cultural shifts that appears to be for the better (IMO).... Positive changes for women are happening all around the world, women will be able to drive cars in Saudi Arabia (doesn't sound like much, but it is a huge change for that culture). They are also being allowed into large stadiums (while still forced to sit in family area). I suspect at least some of that hyper protective culture is based on acknowledgement of human baseness regarding sexuality (and power of men over women). 

JR
 
Overall, I think this movement is a good thing, but I don’t think employers should be canning people based on unsubstantiated accusations... it opens the door for anyone who has a grudge against a famous person to make accusations and ruin their career... it’s definitely a double edged sword.
 
Seeker said:
Overall, I think this movement is a good thing, but I don’t think employers should be canning people based on unsubstantiated accusations... it opens the door for anyone who has a grudge against a famous person to make accusations and ruin their career... it’s definitely a double edged sword.
That is why we have rule of law, but employment is often at the will of the employer. High level employees often have employment contracts that specify the terms and conditions for terminating employment. Any employer who terminates workers that casually based on unverified information gets the lousy outcome they deserve.

Harvey Weinstein was such a widely known sexual predator that his employment contract codified his behavior as long as he paid settlement claims and penalties out of his business funds.  The larger question is how corrupt is the society that not only tolerates such behavior, but writes it into his contract as permitted, as long as he was making successful movies and kept his business partners whole?

We need to drain the entire swamp, not just the Washington political elite, but flush all the enablers of bad behavior, wherever they are. Politicians tolerated the hollywood lowlifes for their campaign contributions and access to publicity. It is almost silly to say that politicians "tolerated" entertainment executives, neither is standing on very high ground.  ::)

Sunlight is the best remedy for this. Close public inspection of seedy behavior usually stops it from continuing. I'm glad it is now popular for media to spotlight this, instead of looking away with a wink... In the past they even make jokes about Harvey Weinstein's bad behavior at awards shows, and most of the audience, did not object. I expect those jokes made more than a few in the audience uncomfortable, just didn't make Harvey uncomfortable enough to change.

JR
 
pucho812 said:
they should have thought about that before they did the deed that has them in trouble.

a) you assume their guilt
b) still not what I asked about.
 
JohnRoberts said:
We need to drain the entire swamp, not just the Washington political elite,

So, "everyone" agrees Weinstein is guilty because there were several allegations, and yet Trump was accused by several women as well.

I guess the difference is that Trump admitted he grabbed women by the pussy, and that he used his stardom to not even ask for permission because women "let him", and your response to that is to elect him president.

Yet here we are and you're calling for the Washington political elite to be 'drained'.

I mean... irony much?
 
Seeker said:
Overall, I think this movement is a good thing, but I don’t think employers should be canning people based on unsubstantiated accusations... it opens the door for anyone who has a grudge against a famous person to make accusations and ruin their career... it’s definitely a double edged sword.

I totally agree.

To me red flags go up when there's a "band wagon" and everyone appears to be a victim of abuse. In Sweden the debate turned very dumb very quickly, and any nuance and attempt to understand how "innocent until prove guilty" is a reasonable principle just gets turned into "So you are defending rape huh!?"

It's obviously different for different people, but using the very common definitions of sexual assault I too have been assaulted. Without a doubt. However, there are circumstances that makes that pretty much a non-issue.

So I too would be worried that mere allegations now suffice to punish people. We've been here before, in I think the mid 90's where repressed memories of sexual assault (especially pedophilia) were all the "rage"... until people started listening to actual professionals who showed it wasn't true.

And on a purely practical note: What are the rules now when going out on a date? Do we always ask permission before any touch? You probably say 'yes', to which I'll counter that I agree with John in that there is this difference that is apparently inherent in our species, where always asking for permission isn't a sign of strength, which in turn makes people less attractive.

Somewhat strange times we live in.
 
Weinstein is out and Trump is in, so in a fact based analysis Hollywood has higher standards for behavior than the American  people as a whole.

Surely there is a lesson in there somewhere, whether or not we are ready to learn it.

As for false accusations, they are kind of a red herring in the context of these kinds of serial sexual assaults with a dozen or more credible, public accusers each, going back decades with a consistent reported pattern of behavior.

But, "the Hunt" with Mads Mikkelson is an excellent movie about that topic.  It might be one of the more realistically terrifying things you've seen on a movie screen in your life, if you're a man.
 
mattiasNYC said:
And further more are they immoral for thinking that they can do anything just because they're a star, and they won't even wait for permission by the victims....
Not sure I get this.. Isn't anyone who think they can do anything immoral?
 
mattiasNYC said:
So, "everyone" agrees Weinstein is guilty because there were several allegations, and yet Trump was accused by several women as well.

I guess the difference is that Trump admitted he grabbed women by the pussy, and that he used his stardom to not even ask for permission because women "let him", and your response to that is to elect him president.

Yet here we are and you're calling for the Washington political elite to be 'drained'.

I mean... irony much?
I see what you did there,, a little topic judo to flip the disgust onto another target, pretty clever.  :-[

I could argue it isn't remotely apple to apples, but won't,  because even that reported past behavior by Trump was undesirable.

Good one.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
We need to drain the entire swamp, not just the Washington political elite, but flush all the enablers of bad behavior, wherever they are.

See I still don't understand why you dislike Obama so much. He was the most moral president we have had in a long time. Even if you disagree with his politics, he was an example to the American people morally and ethically. His wife and daughters showed real values to American women and girls. This was a presidential family free of corruption, leading by example. This has to be worth something to you. I know you had a problem with his "free sh*t" policies, but that actually  shows tremendous moral and ethical principals, even Christian principals. This was a good man and leader. Now we have the opposite in every way. Look at the way Trump and his family sets examples for our young people...The parallel between Weinstein and Trump is a valid one.
 
I suppose if someone were falsely accused of sexual harassment, especially a wealthy person, they'd have a law suit issued before you could say arsegrabber. Silence as they say, is deafening.

In the UK David Ike used to Accuse Jimmy Savile of paedophilia whilst Savile was alive ,  he said it publically and repeatedly, and even put it in his books, he said 'if I'm lying Savile can sue me" he never did.

Now Ike can be s bit of a loon but he worked at the BBC when Savile did. 

I think Spacey owned up to it but said he was drunk, cause you know, 14 year old boys are fine when you're drunk...
 
bluebird said:
See I still don't understand why you dislike Obama so much. He was the most moral president we have had in a long time. Even if you disagree with his politics, he was an example to the American people morally and ethically. His wife and daughters showed real values to American women and girls. This was a presidential family free of corruption, leading by example. This has to be worth something to you. I know you had a problem with his "free sh*t" policies, but that actually  shows tremendous moral and ethical principals, even Christian principals. This was a good man and leader. Now we have the opposite in every way. Look at the way Trump and his family sets examples for our young people...The parallel between Weinstein and Trump is a valid one.

What a great view - and well presented.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top