Has anyone heard the Samar Audio line transformers?

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Just like most other transformer manufacturers they wax lyrical about the benefits of their topology and production process but give absolutely zero specifications for their products.

Cheers

Ian
 
I notice they epound about this '3D sound quality' thing as well ,
A mono sound source has no width , so perhaps 1 dimension , depth ,
Stereo has width and depth , so 2 dimensions ,
Whats the third dimension ?

Marik has been very helpfull here ,taking the time to explain some of the finer point of ribbon mic design .
 
While I have no direct or indirect experience with these particular transformers, I have used toroids in tube amp output circuits. The efficiency up to 5kHz was excellent, though the bandwidth fell off there, and the radiation (feedback city with magnetic pickups) made them unusable.
If nothing else, the claim "toroids do not require shielding" is False.
 
While I have no direct or indirect experience with these particular transformers, I have used toroids in tube amp output circuits. The efficiency up to 5kHz was excellent, though the bandwidth fell off there, and the radiation (feedback city with magnetic pickups) made them unusable.
If nothing else, the claim "toroids do not require shielding" is False.

Well, you’re talking about a power amp output, completely different discussion. We’re talking about small signal audio.
 
Hi all,

Question in the title

https://www.samaraudiodesign.com/categoryTransformers.html
Curious about the LT1/1 and LT1/2 at the bottom of the page

Rauri,

What is your intended application? The transformer has 4 different chambers, so unlike any other topology all the windings are symmetrical (including DCR) and have very close parameters of the windings (unlike if say, we were winding secondary on top of primary). Also, such arrangement has very low winding capacitance. We calculate Pri inductance our transformers with -3dB at 20Hz, however, could customize if needed.

Just like most other transformer manufacturers they wax lyrical about the benefits of their topology and production process but give absolutely zero specifications for their products.

Cheers

Ian

Ian,

“They” (i.e. we) are not a transformer, but first and foremost microphones manufacturer… it is just happened that we make our own transformers and some of them are known as the very best money can buy. Our transformers were used in quite a few High End ribbon and condenser microphones manufacturers (needless to mention, to our knowledge at least two of which have lifted our design and started selling under their own name... at reduced price).

In any case, our belief is the most important part of the transformers is the actual sound and how they are integrated into the circuit, and not how they measure. Moreover, likewise with microphones, the widely accepted characteristics, such as frequency response, distortions, inductance at 1kHz, etc. do not give any representation of the sonics. Moreover, the conditions all those parameters have been achieved are completely different from the ones in the circuit, or certain application.

The most important measurements we believe are vector impedance and phase shift at different frequencies. Unfortunately, not all even professional engineers would know how to interpret those, especially because NONE of the manufacturers post those and there is no point of reference. Those are a good indication of low losses, low winding capacitance, low leakage, low winding DCR, good coupling, and low distortions. Only one thing defines those—winding topology and core used. That’s the main reason why we go into such detailed explanation of the topology--if the special attention put into those areas that would be a very good indication the transformer will have wide bandwidth and excellent sonics. I remember I was posting here about ribbon microphone transformers very detailed message explaining all of those and also about noise consideration in the transformers.

Seems a pricey option, curious as well. Their high end ribbon mics do sound great.

John,

In fact, those prices are some 10 years old. Since then the materials, Nickel and labor prices went up… some of them more than twice, so we need to revise them. But the prices depend on the topology and termination. For example, it is easy just to slap a primary over secondary. The interleaving, or chambering will take much more time… especially, if to combine those together. The termination is also time consuming. The PCB mounted through pins are quite a bit cheaper.

I notice they epound about this '3D sound quality' thing as well ,
A mono sound source has no width , so perhaps 1 dimension , depth ,
Stereo has width and depth , so 2 dimensions ,
Whats the third dimension ?

Marik has been very helpfull here ,taking the time to explain some of the finer point of ribbon mic design .

Tubetec,

We are not discussing here the properties of the mono, or stereo, but rather talking about subjective perception. Say, you can listen to a system and ensemble will sound ‘flat’ (not to confuse with flat response), lifeless, grey, and uninteresting, where all the instruments will be smeared into one big mess. On the other hand, the same recording on a different system can give each instrument its own space, having almost holographic representation of sound stage and image. Hard to put into the words, but once you hear it—you know what it is.

Best, M
 
@Marik,

Like you I am not a transformer designer - I design and build tube mixers. I like to be able to give my customers a choice of transformers for their mixer. They often express preferences based on sonics, reputation and marketing blurb. As a designer, none of that is of any assistance to me. What I need to know are the dc resistances, the primary inductance at 20Hz and graphs of distortion versus level across the audio spectrum.

Cheers

Ian
 
Last edited:
Rauri,

What is your intended application? The transformer has 4 different chambers, so unlike any other topology all the windings are symmetrical (including DCR) and have very close parameters of the windings (unlike if say, we were winding secondary on top of primary). Also, such arrangement has very low winding capacitance. We calculate Pri inductance our transformers with -3dB at 20Hz, however, could customize if needed.

Hey Marik,

Thanks for jumping in here. Intended application is for a line level EQ for mix bus duties. Something that is relatively clean but leverages the right distortions to be maximally useful - in this case just a little transformer bloom download and just a little low order distortion, solid state opamps chosen for a little favor.

The specific goal is to replace a Chandler Curvebender and Fearn VT5 in a friend's mix rig. But time is short and this is just a mental exercise mostly for now.

Cheers,
Ruairi
 
To everyone here Marik has been here a long time, since before he set up Samar. In all those years here and in person at trade shows I've never found him to be the hand waving type. That said magnetics is the one area where measurement only takes you so far, it is still as much art as science. Frequency response etc can be managed, but distortion with transients etc are much harder to predict.
 
@Marik,

They often express preferences based on sonics, reputation and marketing blurb. As a designer, none of that is of any assistance to me. What I need to know are the dc resistances, the primary inductance at 20Hz and graphs of distortion versus level across the audio spectrum.

Cheers

Ian

Ian,

Obviously, we have a bit different approach. While I understand your line about 'reputation and marketing blurb', I believe the customers do have rights for their sonic preferences and as a designer I always take that into account. I have very little idea what is significance and why you pick the inductance at 20Hz and what kind of information it gives you. Radiotron 4th edition, which is still the Bible gives a very good overview about inductances and how to correctly calculate the transformer parameters. There is nothing about 20Hz there. Other than that, to measure inductance at 20Hz reliably is another issue. For example our HP 4274A LCR Meter, which is one of the finest pieces of equipment of that type ever made starts at 100Hz. We also have HP4800A Vector Impedance Meter, which is also very nice and which indeed can give the measurements down to 5Hz (!!!), but anything even close to 20Hz is still unstable and doesn't repeat well.

While I understand DC resistances indeed important for noise calculations, I am not sure why would you need to measure the distortions vs level across entire spectrum, when usually with higher levels the distortions raise mostly at the low frequencies and anything above 100--200Hz stays pretty much immune to overloading.

As I mentioned, in a well, or just correctly designed transformer I believe the Z line vs frequency and phase shift are much more important in predicting transformer sonics and the winding topology (if you know how to interpret it) is by far dominating to predict transformer actual behavior.

Hey Marik,

Thanks for jumping in here. Intended application is for a line level EQ for mix bus duties. Something that is relatively clean but leverages the right distortions to be maximally useful - in this case just a little transformer bloom download and just a little low order distortion, solid state opamps chosen for a little favor.

The specific goal is to replace a Chandler Curvebender and Fearn VT5 in a friend's mix rig. But time is short and this is just a mental exercise mostly for now.

Cheers,
Ruairi

Ruairi,

Ah, I think either our LT1, or LT2 will be wrong for your application. First, the low ratios like 1:1, or 1:2 are pretty neutral to start with, so the LT1/2 with their hi Ni lamination and fancy winding topology they are very transparent. To get the bloom and distortions you are looking for I'd suggest to look at something made on M6. I think I saw those at Edcor and they are quite a bit cheaper.

Best, Mark
 
Ian,

Obviously, we have a bit different approach. While I understand your line about 'reputation and marketing blurb', I believe the customers do have rights for their sonic preferences and as a designer I always take that into account. I have very little idea what is significance and why you pick the inductance at 20Hz and what kind of information it gives you.
I pick 20Hz because it is the lower limit of the audio spectrum. It tells me the minimum load the transformer will present to my driving circuit. You would be surprised at how many so called 600 ohm transformer present a load of less than 600 ohms at 20HZ. If I am to design a circuit that will reliably drive this transformer I need to know this.
Radiotron 4th edition, which is still the Bible gives a very good overview about inductances and how to correctly calculate the transformer parameters. There is nothing about 20Hz there.
Perhaps because in those days the lower limit for high fidelity was 50Hz
Other than that, to measure inductance at 20Hz reliably is another issue. For example our HP 4274A LCR Meter, which is one of the finest pieces of equipment of that type ever made starts at 100Hz. We also have HP4800A Vector Impedance Meter, which is also very nice and which indeed can give the measurements down to 5Hz (!!!), but anything even close to 20Hz is still unstable and doesn't repeat well.
Measuring inducatance to 20Hz is not particularly hard. Pleny of times it has been discussed here. But is is probably not necessary. A 100Hz measurement, if that is all you can mamage, will do. Fortunately most transformers contain some proportion of steel laminations and it is well known that the inductance of these actually increases as frequency decreases. Hence in most cases if the inductance at 100Hz is usfficient then it will be OK at 20Hz. You would be surprised how many manufacturers measure/quote primary inductance at 1KHz (if they quote it at all).
While I understand DC resistances indeed important for noise calculations, I am not sure why would you need to measure the distortions vs level across entire spectrum, when usually with higher levels the distortions raise mostly at the low frequencies and anything above 100--200Hz stays pretty much immune to overloading.

I agree the main area of interest for distortion is below 200Hz but with most test gear it is trivial to to make the measurement across the entire spectrum. In fact for output transformers, which often still employ 100% M6 steel laminations , the distortion above 200Hz is still significant.
As I mentioned, in a well, or just correctly designed transformer I believe the Z line vs frequency and phase shift are much more important in predicting transformer sonics and the winding topology (if you know how to interpret it) is by far dominating to predict transformer actual behavior.
If by Z line you mean a plot of impedance vs frequency then I agree with you and from that I can derive the 20Hz inductance that interests me. As a transformer designer I am sure you know you should be aiming for a linear increase in phase with frequency.

Cheers

Ian
 
While I have no direct or indirect experience with these particular transformers, I have used toroids in tube amp output circuits. The efficiency up to 5kHz was excellent, though the bandwidth fell off there, and the radiation (feedback city with magnetic pickups) made them unusable.
If nothing else, the claim "toroids do not require shielding" is False.
When folks get "toroid fever," they often forget some of the magnetic basics. Toroid transformers don't require shielding only if all windings completely cover all 360° of the core. Otherwise, the opening will be vulnerable to or radiate external fields. This is a very common defect in power transformers but also made in small-signal transformers when "sectioning" of windings is attempted.
And, with regard to sectioning ("chambers?"), the reduced inter-winding capacitance comes at the expense of leakage inductance which (as you observed) reduces high-frequency bandwidth. There is no "free lunch" in small-signal transformer design! For most audio applications, well-designed, layer-wound, E-I core transformers with high-nickel cores give the best possible tradeoff compromise.
I won't even start my rant about transformer with specs that are vague, under unspecified conditions, or conspicuous by their absence! Look at a spec sheet for a Jensen transformer - there's enough real information there for a competent circuit designer to design a truly excellent product.
 
I had a small success in a tube mic supply by rotating the the section of the toroid where the wires exit the core into a corner of the chassis , then neat lead dress back to the pcb .
 

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