Help with circuit for motorized faders

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Techs at the studio are ordering these new Pickering high density relays for a digital pot. They actually have little mu metal shields in them so you can stack them together.

http://www.pickeringrelay.com/pdfs/120-4mm-20W-reed-relays.pdf
 
bluebird said:
Techs at the studio are ordering these new Pickering high density relays for a digital pot. They actually have little mu metal shields in them so you can stack them together.

http://www.pickeringrelay.com/pdfs/120-4mm-20W-reed-relays.pdf

hello

You mean building resistor ladder switching with those ???
Could be a way for steeped gain pot, eventually, but for 32ch "automated" fader I'm not convinced at all  :-X

JohnRoberts said:
Please don't say it can't be done....

I'm sure it can, multiplexing/mixed signal is not that obscure, I like a lot PWM compressor loaded in my desk, and 300kHz filter work fine (at least non audible). I just say there is lot of things to think about it if one want to experiment this, without any guaranty it will work better than other concept usually used to move a fader that pass audio in analog console  ::)

JohnRoberts said:
Now for controlling VCA or digital multipliers, there is little reason to add an additional analog fader track...

100% agree, by definition you don't need audio track for VCA or whatever DCR used to control gain/att

JohnRoberts said:
Speaking of noise why put a sensitive audio  path that close to an electric motor being stepped or ramped?

Because I'm crazy enough to try to keep passive attenuation in my (discrete) console, pushing in the mean time the "need" to automate fader...
Anyway, it's done now so https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9vLD8GdzgM
I just enjoy it  8)

Best
Zam
 
Back when I designed my last (really the last) analog console, I left a ton of room down in the fader bay for customers who wanted to add fader automation.

Several added "uptown" fader automation systems that were popular back then.

JR
 
buildafriend said:
I have a thread about concepts for this in the Arduino forum. Please feel free to chime in!

https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=504962.0

I just have a look... man you start well  8)
The "concept" is already done, I think you just have to pick a platform (arduino or midibox) and build your system.
Optionally you have my "not low cost" hardware analog driver available (MIOS software).
Low cost PWM driver is available all around !

JohnRoberts said:
Back when I designed my last (really the last) analog console, I left a ton of room down in the fader bay for customers who wanted to add fader automation.

Several added "uptown" fader automation systems that were popular back then.

JR

At Peavey ??
I wished designers at Studer think about it when I start building my own moving fader system to retrofit the console.
Unfortunately in the 70' it was not on the top of the wish list I gess... what a nightmare to mechanically fit everything in a modular desk with "closed" fader cassette.

Best
Zam
 
abbey road d enfer said:
Zipper noise...

I vaguely remember a fader made out of a series of reed switches and resistors. No friction from wipers, since the fader was controlled by a simple magnet. Seemed to work well, once the distance between magnet and reed switches was optimal.

Was that an Elektor design? Or was it some disco mixer?
 
zamproject said:
I just have a look... man you start well  8)
The "concept" is already done, I think you just have to pick a platform (arduino or midibox) and build your system.
Optionally you have my "not low cost" hardware analog driver available (MIOS software).
Low cost PWM driver is available all around !

At Peavey ??
Technically it was AMR (audio media research), wholly owned by Peavey and built in Peavey factories. It was nice being able to get the wood endbells fabricated and painted by Peavey's custom guitar shop.  8)
I wished designers at Studer think about it when I start building my own moving fader system to retrofit the console.
Unfortunately in the 70' it was not on the top of the wish list I gess... what a nightmare to mechanically fit everything in a modular desk with "closed" fader cassette.

Best
Zam
As I recall the faders were mounted to separate steel plates in groups of 8, with 5-6" of depth.  Old school motorized faders were deeper than the cheap Alps stuff, and often required added PCBs with control circuity. I didn't have enough high end customers to justify rolling my own automation system, but several customers added in the Uptown, and I even borrowed a system from them for one trade show (back in the 90s).  They had routines to make the fader do tricks, great for show and tell.  ;D

JR

 
JohnRoberts said:
Technically it was AMR (audio media research), wholly owned by Peavey and built in Peavey factories. It was nice being able to get the wood endbells fabricated and painted by Peavey's custom guitar shop.  8)As I recall the faders were mounted to separate steel plates in groups of 8, with 5-6" of depth.  Old school motorized faders were deeper than the cheap Alps stuff, and often required added PCBs with control circuity.

Is this linked to DDA AMR at some point?

About fader I don't recommand this alps for audio with "great" result...they offer dual track log+audio in this compact package, but carbon track is super noisy, slide noise, I tested them...
I don't know which brand use them for fader analog/passive automation, but they make them so there is large order from someone...
Finally my choice go to TKD,  conductive plastic, even at fastest speed, sliding noise is ultra low.

Best
Zam
 
zamproject said:
Is this linked to DDA AMR at some point?
no
About fader I don't recommand this alps for audio with "great" result...they offer dual track log+audio in this compact package, but carbon track is super noisy, slide noise, I tested them...
I never used the alps motor fader, but the digital group used them in a x8 moving fader unit for midi control.

I used a lot of the Alps K-Fader  (The K stands for Korean since they released the K fader to compete with the (very cheap) Korean Jung Poon fader that used the dual drill rods inside for P&G like feel, but Jung Poon were too cheap to work reliably...
I don't know which brand use them for fader analog/passive automation, but they make them so there is large order from someone...
Finally my choice go to TKD,  conductive plastic, even at fastest speed, sliding noise is ultra low.

Best
Zam
I have been out of that market too long to know what brand is competitive now. My last friend still designing high performance consoles died over a year ago, so I don't even have somebody to ask.

JR
 
[quote author=JohnRomsg853596#msg853596 date=1508944114]
I never used the alps motor fader, but the digital group used them in a x8 moving fader unit for midi control.
[/quote]

Yes, those are fine for remote only, sliding noise at servo track is not so problematic
The only manufacturer I can imaging using the dual track version is A&H for they GSR24, but I'm not 100% sure the fader pass audio so...

[quote author=JohnRomsg853596#msg853596 date=1508944114]
I used a lot of the Alps K-Fader  (The K stands for Korean since they released the K fader to compete with the (very cheap) Korean Jung Poon fader that used the dual drill rods inside for P&G like feel, but Jung Poon were too cheap to work reliably...I have been out of that market too long to know what brand is competitive now. My last friend still designing high performance consoles died over a year ago, so I don't even have somebody to ask.

JR
[/quote]

K series is the "highend" ALPS product, conductive plastic IIRC, unfortunately there is no dual track options for the motor version.
The "true" quality brand on the market is of course P&G (prohibitive), and TKD.

Best
Zam
 
zamproject said:
Yes, those are fine for remote only, sliding noise at servo track is not so problematic
The only manufacturer I can imaging using the dual track version is A&H for they GSR24, but I'm not 100% sure the fader pass audio so...

K series is the "highend" ALPS product, conductive plastic IIRC, unfortunately there is no dual track options for the motor version.
Alps had a higher end fader before the K series. I tried to spec that into my AMR console but the man with his name on the building made me use the Jung Poon (crap)...  :mad: :mad: 

Almost immediately the Jung Poon started failing in the field (plastic slider handle would break)...  I had the factory test them 100% before wiring them up, by pushing the slider handle from side to side. We ended up rejecting thousands of them...  I recall one very uncomfortable meeting between me and the distributor for jung poon when our director of purchasing left me to hang in the wind when I admitted I didn't have the vendor's approval to test them that way.  The first question I asked the distributor was if it was OK to test them that way, he said yes, and got thousands rejected with broken sliders. (We weren't the only company who tried to use the jung poon, with bad results). By the way that purchasing director was dead to me after that for not having my back... ::)

Luckily for me, right around then Alps rescued me with their new K series. It was more expensive than the Jung Poon but a fraction of the cost of Alps premium fader.   
The "true" quality brand on the market is of course P&G (prohibitive), and TKD.

Best
Zam
I am not familiar with TKD but used P&Gs in my old Loft consoles back in the 70s. The regular P&G faders were something like $40 ea in 1970s dollars, but they were the real deal.  The first thing customers do when shopping consoles is feel the faders. A little silly, because it has very little to do with audio path performance but how they think.

JR
 
zamproject said:
What a story !
I guess it's how it work in big company, when cost is a major factor...
What a waist of time and heartbeat when you are involved in such position.
Actually I learned a ton and accomplished a lot over 15 years working at Peavey... One of the hardest things I had to learn going there after being president of my own company, was that people would say they were going to do something, then not do it. As company president if I asked for something, either I got it or a prompt explanation why it couldn't happen. At peavey if i didn't ask for something 3 times they didn't think I wanted it.  ::)
Loft console ? not aware of this
like this link ? http://www.preservationsound.com/?tag=loft

Best
Zam
Yes, those are the old soldiers....The original small ones were modular, the later bigger series were single strips.  The original Loft company went belly up with me working as an outside design consultant. After that we formed Phoenix Audio Lab  (with me as President) to take over after the bankruptcy.  We also sold a popular Loft studio delay line/flanger and several rack products (like crossovers) under PAL brand. Probably our best known sku was the Loftech TS-1 audio test set. 

I quit over disagreement with the other partners about raising capital (history proved me correct but it was a small consolation).

JR
 
Martin Griffith said:
PID stuff from Bob Pease, it can be quite simple at times.  I suppose it could be downgraded by an Arduino

Enjoy

Martin
Not bad, but the main issue is solid friction, which in digital is solved by iteration; in analog, it takes some "shaking", in a similar manner to ultrasonic bias in tape recorders.
 
JohnRoberts said:
...
Speaking of noise why put a sensitive audio  path that close to an electric motor being stepped or ramped?

JR

And usually a loop of it, as you can't twist the resistive element with a wire around it, poor wiper if you do so.

I'm sure it can be done but still a VCA makes more sense. Feed the same VCA with your sidechain CV and you have one less stage in the chain!

JS
 
joaquins said:
And usually a loop of it, as you can't twist the resistive element with a wire around it, poor wiper if you do so.
There are several examples of such systems where the problems have been ironed out satisfactorily. By construction, the resistive tracks are shielded from the motor. The only remaining issue is making sure the motor currents do not enter the audio path.

[/quote] I'm sure it can be done but still a VCA makes more sense. Feed the same VCA with your sidechain CV and you have one less stage in the chain!
[/quote] Many users are concerned with VCA noise and distortion. Doesn't make much sense it at the same time they insert a VCA compressor, but who said SE's are logical?
 
abbey road d enfer said:
Not bad, but the main issue is solid friction, which in digital is solved by iteration; in analog, it takes some "shaking", in a similar manner to ultrasonic bias in tape recorders.
I think we used to call that "stiction", friction to overcome to get something moving.

JR
 

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