Homeland stuff

[Gus]

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=126&a=8374

 

[dale116dot7]

Those willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither.

So what to do about it?

 

[bcarso]

I love the line "...little-debated 634 billion spending measure...".

 

[Svart]

:roll:

If you look hard enough you'll find the enemy everywhere you look..

Paranoia breeds paranoia.

 

[SSLtech]

[quote author="dale116dot7"]Those willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither.

So what to do about it?[/quote]

...-You got a spare room for a few months, Dale? :wink:

-I don't swim so well, and I'm not so keen on Cuban food...

Keef

 

[dale116dot7]

How about a one start - write your congressman, and spread the word about a letter writing campaign, nationwide. If enough letters get written to enough congressmen, maybe someone will notice.

 

[Viitalahde]

What, do you have something to hide? This only affects those who have skeletons in their closets!

(cricket chirping)

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="Viitalahde"]What, do you have something to hide? This only affects those who have skeletons in their closets!

(cricket chirping)[/quote]

I love that attitude too. It's like those who do the nudge-nudge wink-wink when they talk about the Patriot Act, wanting us to suppose that our fine government, nominally expressing an attitude of no profiling etc., will always just be going after the well-known bad guys, those nasty and easily-identifiable Muslim terrorists. Us upstanding folk don't have a thing to worry about.

Unless we get palsey with them stinkin' terrorists... Or dare criticize policy. Just make sure, when speaking, you leave enough g's off the end of words ending in -ing.

 

[SSLtech]

The next big crime will be "pallin' around with tourists"...

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="SSLtech"]The next big crime will be "pallin' around with tourists"...[/quote]

LOL

A major problem for you Floridians!

 

[SSLtech]

Guilty.

I'm a former tourist myself... And I even previously planned to spread some tour here in the us.

Maybe I should make friends with Mr. McCain?

Keith

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm damn glad we can joke about this...

They're blowing up politicians in Iraq in anticipation of the upcoming elections, we are pussies.

JR

 

[SSLtech]

Amen.

Another country, different ball-game altogether.

We think that WE've got problems... It's nothing compared to life just trying to survive in the land to which we most recently 'spread democracy'.

You can get your head blown clean off your shoulders and not even make the news... all as a direct result of the instability which we put in place along with a partial power vacuum.

Keith

 

[dale116dot7]

I think everyone needs to keep an eye so the sacrifices made in the past in your own country (for example, the war of 1812, the Civil War) for the level of democracy and freedom you now have do not go the way of the dinosaur and the Studebaker. As SSL and John have said, be glad you're in as good of a country as you are in; just do what you can to make sure it stays that way.

Sometimes there are difficult choices that need to be made, for example, the trade-off between freedom, privacy, and security. Let's make sure the right trade-offs are made.

I'm wondering about what level of 'use' would be acceptable, if any... but first, from another part of the world:

In Singapore, all elevators are equipped with video cameras so that tickets can be sent to people urinating in them. I'm not kidding! My aunt's ex worked on that project.

If you are speeding, is it ok for a police officer to stop you and give you a ticket? Is it ok to put a camera in place and mail you a ticket?

If you run a red light, is it ok for a police officer to stop you and give you a ticket? Is it ok to put a camera in place and mail you a ticket?

If somebody steals a chocolate bar, is it ok for a police officer to stop you and charge you? Is it ok to put a camera in the store, then find you later? Is it ok to use a camera from space to do the same?

If there's a drug deal going down, is it ok for a SWAT team to get in there and toss those guys in the penn? Is it ok to put in cameras for a stake-out? Is it ok to use a camera from space?

If a murder happens and there are no other clues, except for a camera from space, is it ok to use it? Is it ok to use that data in the trial?

If a couple decides to practise baby-making in an outdoor park, is it ok for a police officer to arrest them? Is it ok to use a camera from space to find them and send a police officer over to arrest them? Is it ok to use the footage in their trial? Is it ok to use the footage to make a pink-market film?

If your significant other is cheating on you, is it ok to hire someone to follow him/her around? Is it ok to watch that same person using a video camera on the ground? From space? Is it ok to put that footage on a public humiliation web site?

I'm quite interested on what people think on these points, where is the line?

-Dale

 

[MartyMart]

Hi DAle, well I live in the UK and we are the most "watched on camera" of all
the EU countries !!
And guess what, we get "speeding" and "red light jumping" tickets in the mail.
( have done for a few years now )

No "loop hole" like in Germany, where the "driver" of the vehicle has to be obvious
and 100% viewable on the camera ( stupid loophole IMO )
No, just the vehicle owner gets the ticket and would have to "prove" that he/she was
not driving.

Solving a murder from a camera in space - heck yes, absolutely why not.
Putting people "making out" in the park on a pink website - NO not fair at all
but if it's breaking the "law" then issue a summons by all means.

I don't mind being "watched" - we all are, and as I have nothing whatsoever to
hide, I don't mind having an ID card either, it would help to "prove" who some
shaddy characters are when stopped by the police .... no ID ? - in the penn !!!

MM.

BTW - go see "Eagle Eye" for some future "watching us" fun !!!

 

[SSLtech]

Too many individual new subjects to cover them all, but let me just pick up on one:

Speeding cameras/red light cameras.

Speeding is one thing... We all do it a little bit. -As is happens, I drove to work this morning, never ONCE knowingly exceeding the speed limit (as part of an experiment in fuel efficiency) and I passed a SINGLE car heading in the same direction, however I was passed by what felt like several hundred. -This means that pretty much every car except the one one which I passed was speeding.

(Oh, and a few others which passed me during getting-up-to-speed from a red traffic light were perhaps not speeding at that precise instant, but you probably see the general trend.)

It's probably quite well known amongst those who have met me I enjoy spirited driving, and it seems from my last few days' worth of at-the-speed-limit motoring that the general public likes to hurry faster than the law strictly permits, but just because "everyone does it" does NOT mean that it is safe.

Despite my joy in spirited driving, I do spend money at the track to get my fix... and it makes me drive MORE carefully on the way home. -I've competed in a national-level one-make championship for a season, I live within short distance of Sebring and Daytona speedways (both of which my car has driven plenty of times) and I try to autocross once a month, schedule permitting.

Driving home afterwards makes you scared sometimes... Seeing what goes on and the general level of distraction of most drivers should make you slow down and keep an eye open... certainly speeding in amongst the public is a lunatic idea... -If you want to have the thrill of going fast (which in itself is not all that great) then pony up and go to the track, where medical attention is PAID to be on hand. I don't much care if I get caught on camera, by a speed gun or by an unmarked police car 'pacing' me... If I'm speeding in public, I'm guilty.

-You get a few miles over the limit as a 'freebie' in this state (though even 1MPH over becomes cause to pull over and brings other issues which are not individually ticketable into play... such as not wearing seat belts, -which I believe is an utterly foolhardy thing to do anyway... if you fit in a belt WEAR IT). -So we all let the car drift a mile or two over the limit, but fifteen over the speed of cars around you who themselves are speeding? -Go to jail. -Now that last part is hard to prove with a camera, but a car on its own doing 100MPH at night? -You're lucky you're not in jail and the car impounded.

Red light cameras are an absolutely ZERO-Tolerance item for me. -I don't care HOW much of a hurry you're in, the cars coming the other way have been cleared to move into the intersection... you have a red light... you run the red light, and again, you're showing a reckless disregard for the safety of others. -My colleague lost his father when he was about ten years old to a side-impact from someone running a red light. -the accident was shown on TV, which is how he got to see the twisted metal where his dad died repeated on every channel as the news camera vultures eagerly played with the zoom lenses.

Run a red light -specially when it's SIGNPOSTED as a red-light-camera intersection- and you DESERVE the ticket.

There have been instances where people have had to cross the stop line to clear a lane for a siren-and-light fire truck trying to get through, and getting a ticket, and there are also plenty of other instances where the system trips up, but unsuspecting people are injured, disfigured or sometimes DIE because someone thought "oh, I don't REALLY have to stop...it's just a bit pink"

Cameras REDUCE red-light running, because people get bitten once and then pay more attention. -It stings to pay the fine, but repeat offenders are rare, and either stupid or excessively distracted.

Cameras are just FINE by me. -Even ones in space.

The German loophole was engineered (if I'm not mistaken) and put in place after a politician was driving his wife's car on a "dalliance" with his mistress, after telling his wife that he was at a party conference or something similar... The photograph of an elegantly-coiffed lady in the passenger seat was mailed to the car owner... (the politician's WIFE!) and divorce ensued. -The delightful irony of the whole thing is that that particular politician had been a prime mover in getting the cameras INSTALLED, realising that there would be a revenue stream to milk...-'hoist by his own petard' springs to mind. -

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Keith

 

[JohnRoberts]

Camera's in public places should be a civilizing factor, like bobbies on the corner.

Speed limit laws are horribly conflicted. Safe speed for vehicles on a given road depends on several factors. Modern cars are better and will continue to improve with driver aides. Relative speed and mass are also factors.

Speed laws are apparently engineered to accommodate lowest or some low mean common denominator of driver. When national limits were 55 MPH it was incredibly difficult to give the task full concentration.

JR

 

[sodderboy]

I agree with the red light cams, but in NYC the lights are timed to allow for traffic flow, and the cammed lights go from green to red in a millisecond. With only 1 in 200 lights cammed, it is still more of an experiment in "gotcha" law enforcement. Changing the pedestrian and traffic flows has saved more lives on the dangerous stretches of road than red light cams or other possible punishments.
And just watch, municipalities that see their fine receipts going down decide to remove the cams so that they can write more physical tickets. I think that is why we have not seen the UK speeding cams in the US, or toll road tickets. With a tag or a ticket, they know how long it took for a car to go the distance, so why not ticket speeders? It is a $$ thing.

The metro area is experimenting with all sorts of cameras, and sharing stats London and other cities. On LI, they have cammed all secondary intersections, and are working on tertiary places now. But they are not for traffic control. They are for plate tracking in the event of- what? I see many police cars now with two roof-mounted cameras that sit in the middle turn lane. They scan and run plates in a matter of seconds, and they bust cars with outstanding warrants.

In stores, cameras help with theft big time. If they do not catch thieves in the act, they get footage of whodunnit. There are gangs that work retail stores for big numbers, not Johnny stealing candy. Still footage helps managers ID them when they enter the store.

My personal experience with stealth camming was with a crazy neighbor. He was a territorial gorilla who chose, instead of having neighborly dialog, to lawyer-up during the day and harass us at night. IR cam footage was enough to bring charges against him and drive him back under his rock. The cam did it's job, and it's presence still is a deterrent, but the act of putting it all in place and getting footage was pure black energy. I had to lower myself to the level of the criminal to get them. That was a specific application, and not every camera shines on a crook.

My problem with surveillance in general is with the watcher, and who is watching THEM. Dick Cheney, all darth demagoguery aside, is a mouse when compared to a Dzerzhinsky, Himmler or even some wanker mining pink market footage.
Mike