How good is that DIY-stuff really ?

[Telmar]

Hi to all DIYers !

I´ve read some threads here at prodigy pro where people are asking how good that DIY-stuff really is
and if it´s worth the effort and so on ...

Let me tell you this:

I gave three DIY-units to some guys from a well known professional studio here in Germany.
Believe me when I tell you that these guys really know how to produce, record and mix.
Even some of the US-guys here at prodigy pro have heard their work in the past.

The units:

- Green Pre
- GSSL Bus Comp (with turbo-board)
- 1176 clone with OpAmp-input and Lundahl-output

The comments:

Green Pre -> "Very good bread and butter preamp, sounds at least good on everything,
sounds amazing on overheads or acoustic guitars."
Was used on an album that went into the German top 10 this year !

GSSL -> "I know the original and this one has got the same signature-sound."
They made no side-by-side-comparison but everybody loved and used it as long as they got it.

1176 -> "It has the same compression-character but sounds cleaner and more open."
First they thought the unit is not as cool sounding as the original, but after some time they used it daily.

"On some sources it´s cool to have the colour of the original on other sources it´s
cool to have a cleaner tone, it´s a great sounding alternative, not better or worser, just different
but with the same great 1176-ish compression behaviour"

I used it myself on a vocal-session with an API 312 pre and the producer was very pleased.
Producer: "... what compressor did you use ... the API ? The Distressor ?"
Me: "No, I used my 1176."
Producer: "Oh really ? Sounds very good !"

Why I am telling you this ?

! ! ! CAUSE YOU HAVE TO WAKE UP ! ! !

If the stuff that´s discussed here is good enough for those guys with a large console
and an outboard-rack that´s stuffed with the who is who of outboard gear from 1978
until today, don´t you think it´s good enough for us all ?

If you are able to read schematics, hold an soldering-iron and know basic electronics,
don´t buy that "German"-B-company-build-cheap-china-crap !

Start with a DIY-project today !

... and who´s goona pay me for this advertisement ? ...  ;D

 

[MartyMart]

Good points, had similar comments the last two weeks from a producer I was working for
here at my home studio.
Used the SSL9k/1176 and the D-AOC and he was "blown away" to say the least !

Of course it takes time and some money but there's nothing more satisfying than saying
"yes that does sounds great and I built it myself" 

MM.

 

[simonsez]

Agreed.....My la2a come out as a winner when compare to that expensive big blue compressor. I don't buy thing made in china anymore, even when it had US or German brand...

 

[SNG]

Totally agree...   ;D
Have similar results with a pre-amp, many musicians preferred my project above the original one... like that!
Original or cloned equipment are also build from electronic parts, so long you use the same specifications, why a DIY project should not achieve the same results...  8)

Chinese build equipment is not so bad as it seems like sometimes. The German or American company who are selling them, are to lazy to do some quality control and check or each unit is conform the specifications. If you underpay these people, don't expect then that each unit works as it suppose to be. A friend of mine is Chinese and imports a lot from China to sell locally. He checks always each unit or it works... about 5% he has to send back... on that way he knows for 100% sure that his clients receives 100% tested working stuff....

 

[Luny Tune]

Not to argue....but why this topic?

I mean, everybody here's building the gear...so aren't you kinda barking up the wrong tree here?

 

[Infernal_Death]

The "problem" with DIY units is that they are only as good as the person who built it is.
Pretty much all DIY projects discussed here have the potential to rival all the commercal gear, when done right.
But if you don't have a glue about building the unit, for example position the power transformer next to
audio transformers, using cheap or wrong parts, don't manage to properly ground your unit, not
shielding wires you have to, you built a unit which isn't anything great.

Flo

 

[drpat]

...

 

[warpie]

Hi drpat,

It ended up being a simple thing that was easy to overlook, but a major error on a VERY popular project here that prevents it from EVER being a faithful reproduction of the original unit.

Can you please be a bit more specific? or is it some kind of 'personal' secret...? 

cheers
michael

 

[drpat]

Not a personal secret, just potentially "bad for business" for individuals that use this forum to sell their products. I chose to omit names to avoid the "not so polite" PM's that I sometimes get from these individuals.

 

[JohnRoberts]

IMO- Circuit performance is dominated by design (which includes component selection and mechanical layout).

DIY- a  faithfully copied good design should perform similarly to that good design.

Of course there are always opportunities to make mistakes when copying and many original schematics are hand drawn with their own mistakes (trust me, many originals schematics were just for internal use and not well vetted for accuracy). Many parts of the ancillary manufacturing process were never documented at all.

Just like classical music, the good stuff that survives the test of time is good, we don't search out the old crap. There is some undeserved lust for old stuff, and attraction to the sound of non-linearities a lot of the older gear is subject to, is questionable (to me).

As a design engineer I've never seen a circuit I wouldn't change (improve? at least in my mind). DIY copying classic gear is a way to get classic performance for less cost. FWIW I caught a few minutes of a TV show about high end pawn shopping, and apparently one criteria that devalues a collectible is if there were a lot of replicas made. So this practice is perhaps diminishing the value of the originals out there.

Of course if these clones become popular enough some real manufacturer will make them... some already have. Copying the copies might be a better strategy if they are well executed using more modern parts, or not.

JR

PS; To directly answer the title question, I used to own a kit company and I got to see a lot of samples of DIY soldering skills. They ranged from mil-spec very good, to scary bad... I even had one customer insert the components on the wrong side of the PCB... not a problem with SMT, but that creates other DIY challenges.

 

[1954U1]

Not a personal secret, just potentially "bad for business" for individuals that use this forum to sell their products. I chose to omit names to avoid the "not so polite" PM's that I sometimes get from these individuals.

But.. dont you think that talking about "major errors" on projects here while not giving any detail is bad for all?

 

[MrZpliff]

Not a personal secret, just potentially "bad for business" for individuals that use this forum to sell their products. I chose to omit names to avoid the "not so polite" PM's that I sometimes get from these individuals.

But.. dont you think that talking about "major errors" on projects here while not giving any detail is bad for all?

+1

gettin' curious...

 

[SaMpLeGoD]

Well, I start DIYing with my stompboxes, making some mods on my boss pedals, started also building some Tube Screamers, and trying to understand how and why it works.
All I can say aboutt DIYing is that I'm not trying to make any original's replica, I'm just trying to make some good sound units, knowing at the start the way I want to go... Do I need some some compressor with character, ok... I' going for the 1176 as an example.

Three days ago I made my first A/B test with my 1176 Rev D and a 1176LN Rev D original's "black face" from 1975 I guess.
Both at the same light settings sounds preety much the same, but my clone sound preety much better FOR WHAT I WANT than the original in extreme settings... So my conclusion is: I'm a music producer, live performance's guitarrist, and part time DIYer hehehe... and I just happy and at this time, because if I want more this or more that from my unit, I can mod the unit the way I want, buy the parts I want don't getting tied to any quality/ price relationship, so the forum helps me archieving that and it's priceless... the units here in the forum are awesome, believe me!
I'm using my units all the time, some of them like my GSSL, 1176, LA-2A and my Neve 1290, SSL9k are used day after day...
I made some 5.1 mix from a Nelly's Furtado concert to a demonstration DVD a few days ago, and I tell you, her vocals sounds great beeing "smashed" by my 1176  got it?!? and that's the point... I'm musician as many here at the forum, and remember one thing: all the original's equipment we're talking about here, was made to fullfill someone's taste, no matter who.. in the 1176LN's case... Bill Putnam's taste... and for me, I think he has a wonderful taste idealizing the 1176 unit, so it's nice if I'm able to start at bill's taste and mod into anything I like even more! isn't it? I think that is the spirit...

Cheers!!!

Eddie

 

[3nity]

IF it sounds good i dont care how good it looks.
Altough if you use it on a recording studio then you might take care of how it looks.
I have had friends coming to my place and they've heard some of 1290s and loved them.....
Now they know clones sound good....they really trust my units even if they dont look nice.
one example was my GSSL using a front plate with a 1k holes or my dual 1176 with only 1 VU...
they look hypnotized by diy sound not look..

Drpat you got my attention with that project...

 

[SIXTYNINER]

hi telmar
YES
you wrote very right words!

but:
before say : it sound great/nice/cool.....
compare it with all the best available on the market !

cheers to all
as allways
6T9R

 

[Svart]

Alright Drpat, time to spill the beans..

;D

 

[gswan]

IMO- Circuit performance is dominated by design (which includes component selection and mechanical layout).

DIY- a  faithfully copied good design should perform similarly to that good design.

A very good point John.
Component selection can be critical to faithfully copy an original circuit.

There's a lot of hand matching and trimming in the 1176 circuit, for example. Many people don't know and just put in a component with the same marked value. How many match the betas of the GR amp transistors? How many trim the threshold using the mysteriously marked component on the original circuit? How many measure and trim the ratios so they match what's written on the panel?

Faithful reproduction goes beyond simply selecting the same component as marked, however that's not to say that the end product doesn't sound any good, it just may not be the same.

 

[3nity]

Wich schem are you talking 'bout Gswan? links?
thanks.

 

[SaMpLeGoD]

but:
before say : it sound great/nice/cool.....
compare it with all the best available on the market !

cheers to all
as allways
6T9R

If you can afford buying that kind of top gear it's nice...

Eddie

 

[jsteiger]

OK. I was gonna delete my post but figured I would make some sort of edit. It was originally a direct reply to something fazeka had posted. After my post, he deleted his! What's up with that fazeka?

Anyhow, it was all in regards to errors on PCB's. They are out there, not only a few here with some DIY projects (including mine) but with the "store bought" factor jobs too. The big manufacturers are not perfect either. 

Cheers!
Jeff