How many more times?
- Thread starter DaveP
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That is not worthy of comment and is part of the same mumbojumbo that produced the survivalist conspiracy theory mentality that the rest of the world finds so hard to understand.
The lines between Hollywood and reality have become blurred in some peoples minds.
DaveP
The lines between Hollywood and reality have become blurred in some peoples minds.
DaveP
i haven't hardly uttered a peep on any of the recent events, so sorry for the monologue in advance. i've been stewing on it for awhile, and you're the poor saps that i'm dumping it on.
i'm no advocate of wholesale gun control- hell, i'm a good shot. i'd own one myself if i felt prepared to accept the responsibility of what i (or, more importantly, someone else) might do with my weapon. i just find the increasingly lax attitude toward gun ownership and education in this country to be particularly alarming. there's a whole lot of noise about gun rights, and never so much as a peep about the responsibilities associated with the possession of such a thing. we've established as a society that if you can't handle your rights without causing a detriment to society at large, they may be restricted or revoked. the right to harnessing command over life and death should surpass all others as grounds for excessive care.
i see no responsible justification for assault rifle ownership. this is the threshold where the gun lobby lost any and all credibility in my eyes. to my knowledge, no band of ninjas has ever descended upon the home of a semi-automatic weapons enthusiast. no herd of deer has been hunted by one man possessing an ak47 and a legal permit. at this point in history, no legally owned weapon will ever afford one (or a group) the original intent of the constitutional right: sufficient force to overthrow the military might of an oppressive regime. and most pertinent to the attitudes i find seriously disturbing as of late, the right to go get one's jollies by unloading a few extended clips at a range flies in the face of everything an educated owner hears (and should heed) in the first BREATH of gun ownership: a gun is not a toy. gun ranges exist for the safe and methodical honing of a skill, not so that some dipsh*t can pin the face of his jerk boss on a target after tacking an extra hour onto his 9-5.
while i have no problem with handguns and non-tactical hunting gear, it seems obvious to me that ownership needs to be accompanied by the responsible securing of a weapon. how is it that we might justify moving heaven and earth to house our currency, but do nothing to protect the very lives of ourselves and others? if a weapon is stolen with anything short of a plasma cutter, that's the owner's fault and any nefarious consequences should stick to them like glue. if you have a gun "safe" with a glass window, it isn't SAFE. it's a display case. it exists to make the contents an object of admiration; it glorifies the ends reaped with the device. this is not respect for power, this is worship and thirst. death is not to be made an idol, nor are its instruments. it's precisely this sort of carelessness that has turned "from my cold dead hands" into "from my old nightstand" without so much as a whimper of culpability. if it isn't within arm's reach, you aren't armed. if you live in constant fear of night predators then please, by all means sleep with it under your pillow/mattress and lock it up or holster it in the morning. better than somewhere that it can be stumbled upon without your knowledge and wakeful vigilance. in this respect, i almost prefer concealed carry to some idiot stashing it in the glovebox or building a stockpile behind his box of nudey mags in the closet if you aren't physically or mentally prepared to use the thing, it must be assumed that someone else is- and excessive caution must be employed when securing it.
we were all teenagers once. the stuff we thought was hidden really well always managed to get found when we were at school and the parents went snooping. that took what, 6 hours? less than a work day. expect a professional to do better.
locks. complex ones. thick steel. no spare keys. this isn't a matter of getting grounded, this is a matter of people's very existence. the firearm community needs to get right with their guns before it gets a whole lot tougher for them to get right with their god.
(edited purely for obsessive grammatical/delivery retooling, content and conviction remains stalwart.)
i'm no advocate of wholesale gun control- hell, i'm a good shot. i'd own one myself if i felt prepared to accept the responsibility of what i (or, more importantly, someone else) might do with my weapon. i just find the increasingly lax attitude toward gun ownership and education in this country to be particularly alarming. there's a whole lot of noise about gun rights, and never so much as a peep about the responsibilities associated with the possession of such a thing. we've established as a society that if you can't handle your rights without causing a detriment to society at large, they may be restricted or revoked. the right to harnessing command over life and death should surpass all others as grounds for excessive care.
i see no responsible justification for assault rifle ownership. this is the threshold where the gun lobby lost any and all credibility in my eyes. to my knowledge, no band of ninjas has ever descended upon the home of a semi-automatic weapons enthusiast. no herd of deer has been hunted by one man possessing an ak47 and a legal permit. at this point in history, no legally owned weapon will ever afford one (or a group) the original intent of the constitutional right: sufficient force to overthrow the military might of an oppressive regime. and most pertinent to the attitudes i find seriously disturbing as of late, the right to go get one's jollies by unloading a few extended clips at a range flies in the face of everything an educated owner hears (and should heed) in the first BREATH of gun ownership: a gun is not a toy. gun ranges exist for the safe and methodical honing of a skill, not so that some dipsh*t can pin the face of his jerk boss on a target after tacking an extra hour onto his 9-5.
while i have no problem with handguns and non-tactical hunting gear, it seems obvious to me that ownership needs to be accompanied by the responsible securing of a weapon. how is it that we might justify moving heaven and earth to house our currency, but do nothing to protect the very lives of ourselves and others? if a weapon is stolen with anything short of a plasma cutter, that's the owner's fault and any nefarious consequences should stick to them like glue. if you have a gun "safe" with a glass window, it isn't SAFE. it's a display case. it exists to make the contents an object of admiration; it glorifies the ends reaped with the device. this is not respect for power, this is worship and thirst. death is not to be made an idol, nor are its instruments. it's precisely this sort of carelessness that has turned "from my cold dead hands" into "from my old nightstand" without so much as a whimper of culpability. if it isn't within arm's reach, you aren't armed. if you live in constant fear of night predators then please, by all means sleep with it under your pillow/mattress and lock it up or holster it in the morning. better than somewhere that it can be stumbled upon without your knowledge and wakeful vigilance. in this respect, i almost prefer concealed carry to some idiot stashing it in the glovebox or building a stockpile behind his box of nudey mags in the closet if you aren't physically or mentally prepared to use the thing, it must be assumed that someone else is- and excessive caution must be employed when securing it.
we were all teenagers once. the stuff we thought was hidden really well always managed to get found when we were at school and the parents went snooping. that took what, 6 hours? less than a work day. expect a professional to do better.
locks. complex ones. thick steel. no spare keys. this isn't a matter of getting grounded, this is a matter of people's very existence. the firearm community needs to get right with their guns before it gets a whole lot tougher for them to get right with their god.
(edited purely for obsessive grammatical/delivery retooling, content and conviction remains stalwart.)
Spiritworks
Well-known member
Good post, Mr Grantlack. I find it interesting how the whole gun-control debate brings on very emotionally-heated discussions across the board, wherever they pop up.
Ptownkid
Well-known member
Grantlack...very, very, well put...
Yup. The fetish aspect of weaponry drives a lot of the sales here, on top of the fear people have been sold. 30 years ago, I never really thought city folk really owned guns, certainly not at the level they do now.
If you really need a defensive weapon, it's really hard to argue with the defensive effectiveness of a Mossberg pump action 12 gauge. We are allowing more firepower than that because of what? I might even draw the line there, and not allow the auto loading versions.
#1, it's a sound that any sane person hears, recognizes, and immediately runs away from. You don't even have to fire it, just give it a pump.
#2, looks like they top out at 9 shots.
#3, you would have to be a fairly seasoned user to actually fire (9) 12 gauge rounds without injuring your self with the kickback effect of the gun. The average user will feel some pain in the shoulder, not that slow shooting is a hindrance with a weapon such as that. So it's a bit self limiting for most users, I like that.
#4, great hunting or farm vermin killing weapon too, actually multipurpose.
If you really need a defensive weapon, it's really hard to argue with the defensive effectiveness of a Mossberg pump action 12 gauge. We are allowing more firepower than that because of what? I might even draw the line there, and not allow the auto loading versions.
#1, it's a sound that any sane person hears, recognizes, and immediately runs away from. You don't even have to fire it, just give it a pump.
#2, looks like they top out at 9 shots.
#3, you would have to be a fairly seasoned user to actually fire (9) 12 gauge rounds without injuring your self with the kickback effect of the gun. The average user will feel some pain in the shoulder, not that slow shooting is a hindrance with a weapon such as that. So it's a bit self limiting for most users, I like that.
#4, great hunting or farm vermin killing weapon too, actually multipurpose.
+1.. I don't have any sympathy for assault weapons, full automatic machine pistols, or large capacity clips. When we calm down we need to have a thoughtful debate about this. I view many such weapon owners as boys (girls) and their toys, playing army... If they really enjoy that, they should sign up, where it isn't a game.
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I have tried to avoid the sensational coverage of this tragedy, I get a NYC feed on my satellite, and the NY news stations lay it on pretty thick.
One theme that has emerged from a few thoughtful observers is that schools could be better hardened, so such attacks could be delayed long enough for a police response. Not unlike how they hardened aircraft cockpits to help prevent/slow hijackings. In this school the doors were locked so he just shot out a large window. Not every secure against a motivated individual.
Yes this will cost money too, but now that this vision is firmly planted in the collective memory of future crazies, it appears we need to defend against future whack jobs going for a new record.
It doesn't take an assault rifle, full automatic, or a large capacity clip to kill unarmed innocents, The wing-nut in CO had a 100 round clip that jammed. Eliminating them will only make a marginal difference, just like expanding our supervision of mental health outliers, will not stop every unbalanced individual.
We need to do what we can do, thoughtfully, not in an emotional knee jerk response. For every difficult problem there is a simple answer, usually wrong, but easy to argue to a public looking for simple answers. We deserve better from our leaders. Our legislative record is full of such simple answers that didn't solve the problem (illegal immigration anyone? We fixed this before.).
JR
======
I have tried to avoid the sensational coverage of this tragedy, I get a NYC feed on my satellite, and the NY news stations lay it on pretty thick.
One theme that has emerged from a few thoughtful observers is that schools could be better hardened, so such attacks could be delayed long enough for a police response. Not unlike how they hardened aircraft cockpits to help prevent/slow hijackings. In this school the doors were locked so he just shot out a large window. Not every secure against a motivated individual.
Yes this will cost money too, but now that this vision is firmly planted in the collective memory of future crazies, it appears we need to defend against future whack jobs going for a new record.
It doesn't take an assault rifle, full automatic, or a large capacity clip to kill unarmed innocents, The wing-nut in CO had a 100 round clip that jammed. Eliminating them will only make a marginal difference, just like expanding our supervision of mental health outliers, will not stop every unbalanced individual.
We need to do what we can do, thoughtfully, not in an emotional knee jerk response. For every difficult problem there is a simple answer, usually wrong, but easy to argue to a public looking for simple answers. We deserve better from our leaders. Our legislative record is full of such simple answers that didn't solve the problem (illegal immigration anyone? We fixed this before.).
JR
If you eliminate high capacity, there will still be someone who carries more guns. There will also be those who never go down the path because they don't see the tools as available, or fool-proof enough for a coward to dare.
Andy Peters
Well-known member
emrr said:
That is what I always say in response to the (usually rhetorical) question of, "With what should I defend my
If you want to stop the intruder, do you really want to set and aim a .223, or do you want to spray enough shot in a wide-enough circle to immobilize him with one trigger pull?
And, you're likely dead if you need to take the second shot.
Besides, I'd rather spend a weekend picking pellets out of my walls than attending the funeral of the neighbor's kid that I killed when one of the many shots from the semi-auto went astray.
Here is an observation from a reader of the liberal blog Talking Points Memo. Worth reading, especially if you're not a liberal, because it presents a viewpoint on gun fetishization that is neither liberal nor conservative.
-a
While I don't pretend to give advice or discuss my personal self-defense strategy, a shotgun is a relatively close and personal weapon. If you decide to buy a weapon, do not think that you can just wave it around to scare off miscreants who may also be armed and irrational. Either be prepared to use it effectively, or don't buy it.
If you have ever hunted with a shotgun you will know how hard it is to hit a duck at any distance. OTOH an assault rifle is intended to be effective relatively close and at distance (we were actually trained to aim low at hundreds of yards (with M-16) to throw up ground debris to likely wound an enemy, and more importantly get credit for hitting the firing range silhouette target. If someone is a few tens of yards away from you in a home invasion do you really need to shoot them?
I had drilled into me as a youth that the .22 longs we used to hunt varmints, could carry a mile (?), so we always had to be thoughtful of what direction and trajectory we were aiming. I still find it ludicrous that some cultures think nothing of firing live ammo into the air to celebrate weddings or whatever, but that's another topic for another day.
The issue of modern gun culture has been raised already, and shoot-em-up games pooh-poohed. [edit] I heard a new stat... 5 million kids spend 40 hours a week playing video games... just another data point but being flogged by one Senator as another potential causal factor. [/edit] IMO the entire fabric of modern culture plays a part for better and worse. This culture will continue to evolve over time, but right now there is a lot of anger and our mental health capability is apparently not keeping up.
JR
PS: Being one of those self reporting non-liberals, I read Andy's link... I don't read most links posted here with no explanation, because I am not hungry for 3rd person opinion, but I've know Andy far longer than I've lurked around here. Yes, the modern gun culture is way different than I was raised with, and back in the '70s as a young adult, I had a day job where I carried around a fully automatic assault weapon (M-16) including across southern Germany. Luckily for me it was rarely loaded, and I never fired at another soul in anger, but many who were drafted at the same time as me, did in southeast asia, where people were trying to kill them back. Weapons are tools engineered for a specific task, not toys or penis extensions.
Coincidentally I had a roommate a little while later who never served in the military but bought his own AR-15 (I never asked him why and he never discussed it with me, other than to ask me to tell him how it differed from a real M-16). There was a slightly different gun culture and awareness in Southern CT, when I lived there back then, influenced by the several major gun manufacturers based there, and IIRC one of our circle of friends back then was a descendant from one of the famous gun manufacturing families. A sad coincidence in light of this recent tragedy.
If you have ever hunted with a shotgun you will know how hard it is to hit a duck at any distance. OTOH an assault rifle is intended to be effective relatively close and at distance (we were actually trained to aim low at hundreds of yards (with M-16) to throw up ground debris to likely wound an enemy, and more importantly get credit for hitting the firing range silhouette target. If someone is a few tens of yards away from you in a home invasion do you really need to shoot them?
I had drilled into me as a youth that the .22 longs we used to hunt varmints, could carry a mile (?), so we always had to be thoughtful of what direction and trajectory we were aiming. I still find it ludicrous that some cultures think nothing of firing live ammo into the air to celebrate weddings or whatever, but that's another topic for another day.
The issue of modern gun culture has been raised already, and shoot-em-up games pooh-poohed. [edit] I heard a new stat... 5 million kids spend 40 hours a week playing video games... just another data point but being flogged by one Senator as another potential causal factor. [/edit] IMO the entire fabric of modern culture plays a part for better and worse. This culture will continue to evolve over time, but right now there is a lot of anger and our mental health capability is apparently not keeping up.
JR
PS: Being one of those self reporting non-liberals, I read Andy's link... I don't read most links posted here with no explanation, because I am not hungry for 3rd person opinion, but I've know Andy far longer than I've lurked around here. Yes, the modern gun culture is way different than I was raised with, and back in the '70s as a young adult, I had a day job where I carried around a fully automatic assault weapon (M-16) including across southern Germany. Luckily for me it was rarely loaded, and I never fired at another soul in anger, but many who were drafted at the same time as me, did in southeast asia, where people were trying to kill them back. Weapons are tools engineered for a specific task, not toys or penis extensions.
Coincidentally I had a roommate a little while later who never served in the military but bought his own AR-15 (I never asked him why and he never discussed it with me, other than to ask me to tell him how it differed from a real M-16). There was a slightly different gun culture and awareness in Southern CT, when I lived there back then, influenced by the several major gun manufacturers based there, and IIRC one of our circle of friends back then was a descendant from one of the famous gun manufacturing families. A sad coincidence in light of this recent tragedy.
SSLtech
Well-known member
America needs a snowdrop campaign.
And some common sense.
The second amendment has been interpreted in a ridiculously contorted way to ignore the first half and quote only the second by the overwhelming majority of people... to the degree that it's now commonly referred to as "the right to bear arms" and people forget the 'explanation' part at the beginning.
The US constitution was written some fifty years before, and the 2nd amendment was adopted some 35 years before Robert Peel's introduction of the world's first proper 'police force'. To my mind, the Police constitute a 'well-regulated militia' necessary for the protection and support of a civilized society. -With that in mind, I see the latter part of the amendment as meaning that THE POLICE should have access to weaponry, rather than the untrained, unregulated public at large.
Handguns are 'force multipliers'. They can enable a twisted mind to do horrific damage. Hundreds of thousands have died from handguns in the USA over the last 25 years. -How many tyrants have they overthrown?
As for 'emotional overreaction', take a look at what happened in the UK after Thomas Hamilton took semiautomatic handguns and ~750 rounds of alternating full-metal-jacket and hollow-point ammunition into a school in Scotland in 1996. Note how the parents and their supporters responded not with vitriol and hatred, but with a well-reasoned and honestly heartfelt argument that handguns should NEVER be legally owned by the public.
Preferably watch all 5 parts (10 minutes each), but at least watch parts 4 and 5 of the ten-year-anniversary retrospective which was broadcast a half-dozen years ago... here's part 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUEzrVVTJQ
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the figures which I recently saw, but they claimed that last year handguns still managed to kill 8 people in Britain. -So -yes- they still exist. However, the policemen to whom I chat tell me that almost ALL handgun violence in the UK is between gangs. Most fatality victims are FAR from snow-white, and their passing is mourned by few. -That certainly is a callous view, but let's include it; it's valid. -In the USA, last year's handgun deaths amounted to over ten THOUSAND. The US has about 6 times the population of the UK, but -according to those figures- 1,250 times the rate of handgun deaths.
The SAME DAY that those 20 kids were slain in Connecticut, there was a SECOND school attack, in China: a place where handguns are NOT readily available. Coincidentally, 20+ were attacked, but this time with a knife... far less effective as a 'force multiplier'. -The difference in China is that every last one of those childred survived and get to go home to their relieved families.
America needs a snowdrop campaign.
And the NRA needs to keep out of it.
And some common sense.
The second amendment has been interpreted in a ridiculously contorted way to ignore the first half and quote only the second by the overwhelming majority of people... to the degree that it's now commonly referred to as "the right to bear arms" and people forget the 'explanation' part at the beginning.
The US constitution was written some fifty years before, and the 2nd amendment was adopted some 35 years before Robert Peel's introduction of the world's first proper 'police force'. To my mind, the Police constitute a 'well-regulated militia' necessary for the protection and support of a civilized society. -With that in mind, I see the latter part of the amendment as meaning that THE POLICE should have access to weaponry, rather than the untrained, unregulated public at large.
Handguns are 'force multipliers'. They can enable a twisted mind to do horrific damage. Hundreds of thousands have died from handguns in the USA over the last 25 years. -How many tyrants have they overthrown?
As for 'emotional overreaction', take a look at what happened in the UK after Thomas Hamilton took semiautomatic handguns and ~750 rounds of alternating full-metal-jacket and hollow-point ammunition into a school in Scotland in 1996. Note how the parents and their supporters responded not with vitriol and hatred, but with a well-reasoned and honestly heartfelt argument that handguns should NEVER be legally owned by the public.
Preferably watch all 5 parts (10 minutes each), but at least watch parts 4 and 5 of the ten-year-anniversary retrospective which was broadcast a half-dozen years ago... here's part 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUEzrVVTJQ
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the figures which I recently saw, but they claimed that last year handguns still managed to kill 8 people in Britain. -So -yes- they still exist. However, the policemen to whom I chat tell me that almost ALL handgun violence in the UK is between gangs. Most fatality victims are FAR from snow-white, and their passing is mourned by few. -That certainly is a callous view, but let's include it; it's valid. -In the USA, last year's handgun deaths amounted to over ten THOUSAND. The US has about 6 times the population of the UK, but -according to those figures- 1,250 times the rate of handgun deaths.
The SAME DAY that those 20 kids were slain in Connecticut, there was a SECOND school attack, in China: a place where handguns are NOT readily available. Coincidentally, 20+ were attacked, but this time with a knife... far less effective as a 'force multiplier'. -The difference in China is that every last one of those childred survived and get to go home to their relieved families.
America needs a snowdrop campaign.
And the NRA needs to keep out of it.
SSLtech,
You've been over there a while now I guess, are you any closer to understanding what all this gun stuff is about?
Is it because people are scared in their homes or are they scared of their own government?
I noticed that the confederate states are all mostly republican, so is it them who get jittery when the democrats are in? Kind of left over civil war bitterness. But what happens when the republicans are in power, do the gun sales go down?
I know that this survivalist thing is not a mass movement, but is that part of the anti-government thing? Or has that got a kind of religious doomsday prepared origin?
Sorry about all the questions but they illustrate my lack of understanding, up until recently I had no idea things were that bad.
best
DaveP
You've been over there a while now I guess, are you any closer to understanding what all this gun stuff is about?
Is it because people are scared in their homes or are they scared of their own government?
I noticed that the confederate states are all mostly republican, so is it them who get jittery when the democrats are in? Kind of left over civil war bitterness. But what happens when the republicans are in power, do the gun sales go down?
I know that this survivalist thing is not a mass movement, but is that part of the anti-government thing? Or has that got a kind of religious doomsday prepared origin?
Sorry about all the questions but they illustrate my lack of understanding, up until recently I had no idea things were that bad.
best
DaveP
riggler
Well-known member
If anyone wants to come out to the range and go shooting with me, you are more than welcome to. It's really not the big deal everyone is cracking it up to be.
I have an SKS, yeah an "evil assault weapon". Honestly, that Mossberg 12GA shotgun is way more lethal in my mind in a confined area than an AR-15 or and AK-47 / SKS. I mean an order of magnitude more lethal. I think it's that those guns get a military image and then they become the "bad" ones.
Ever try to get a *quick* sight picture and actually hit anything with a rifle? A shotgun is so much more effective.
You need high round magazines for "assault rifles", cause unless you're at a range on a bench, you're not going to hit very much.
Where I live virtually everyone has a gun. We don't have any problems. I own a Swiss K31 rifle. It's beautiful. Everyone in Switzerland was issued one, and most communities competitively shoot.
This really is a people problem. We have a crappier culture now. SOME people are crazy now.
I have an SKS, yeah an "evil assault weapon". Honestly, that Mossberg 12GA shotgun is way more lethal in my mind in a confined area than an AR-15 or and AK-47 / SKS. I mean an order of magnitude more lethal. I think it's that those guns get a military image and then they become the "bad" ones.
Ever try to get a *quick* sight picture and actually hit anything with a rifle? A shotgun is so much more effective.
You need high round magazines for "assault rifles", cause unless you're at a range on a bench, you're not going to hit very much.
Where I live virtually everyone has a gun. We don't have any problems. I own a Swiss K31 rifle. It's beautiful. Everyone in Switzerland was issued one, and most communities competitively shoot.
This really is a people problem. We have a crappier culture now. SOME people are crazy now.
yes I'd like to know too...DaveP said:
The gun sales during democratic administrations is clearly fear of government clamping down on ownership.
As a yankee who moved south a few decades ago I have some perspective on North/South sensibility.
yes the civil war is more remembered in the south than the north, perhaps because the South lost, but it really isn't dominant in daily Southern culture.
Tracking republican/democratic patterns, it seems to be more of an urban/rural difference, wealthy populous coast line areas vs sparse, poor, fly-over areas.
I recall looking at a breakout by county around me and I can see a republican/democratic grouping following the east/west interstate highway passing though my state (more populous areas democratic). While my theory about this is not very complementary but populations dependent on government aid and largess, tend to aggregate in urban areas.
There has always been a survivalist or loner mentality in random outlier groups, while most are harmless eccentrics (like Thoreau). OTOH some have bad anti-government intentions. I was surprised a few years back to hear the head of homeland security more interested in domestic militias, than infiltrators, so apparently there is mutual distrust on both sides. I don't know if this is chicken and egg thing, but there may be something there. There has also always been anarchists among us too (even in heaven forbid, Europe).
I don't see any simple single coherent characterization and thank you for not mentioning the tea party when rehashing our popular stereotypes.
neither did I... This looks like another isolated incident to me, while it is human nature to see trends where they don't always exist. I sure hope this isn't becoming a trend. A profiler I saw interviewed late last week mentioned copy-cats and one ups-man-ship can factor into such high profile events.
I'm sure we will learn more than we want to know about this incident over time.. I am, despite trying to avoid the sensational media coverage. I can just imagine what you are seeing over there... based on the low regard we are normally held in,
The real tragedy surrounding gun violence is occurring every day in the inner cities, where most often minorities prey on other minorities. The rate of fire arm deaths is four times higher for african-americans.. IMO this is a product of both economic decay in some urban areas, and ineffective police capability to maintain order.
Not remotely the issue being discussed, and a crime that local governments can't step-up, but reversing the economic decline is not simple. Detroit is on the verge of bankruptcy, if not already de-facto insolvent.
This will not be fixed by some new law IMO, but we need to get out of the way of damping economic growth, that I see as contributory to the far more than tens of inner city deaths.
Of course I could be wrong.
JR
audiomixer
Well-known member
not really everyone in switzerland own a rifle of handgun. I turned the gun down when they wanted to hand me one at military service. almost when to jail for that, but thats an other story. we have a massive death toll due to military weapons here in switzerland, from assault to self killing, even if not known in the rest of the world. nobody was ever saved or rescued with help of army guns or rifles, believe me.
now it's not a generally unsafe place either. we do not issue rounds, except for a small amount sealed and checked at military service. not to say it's impossible to get ammo, but not in the same amount then you would in an other country. if you go practice shooting you'll get ammo at the range, and there are strong atemps to get the arms back into the caserns. some low 10'000 arms are missing or not properly accounted for right now, and sure there will always be a way to get an arm, but at least there is a degree of control. less gun is forced to bring less killed.
by the way: technically it's the bullet that kills, not the gun nor the guy pulling the trigger. and there is a certain degree of control over the ammo we issue on military grade ammo here in switzerland. I think we would all start to feel ill if we would go into detail about rounds fired entering kids stomach or smashing 6 year olds heads, leaving a bloodsheed in front of 'happy' survivors. Films and media should not be allowed to reduce the dynamic range of shooting scenes in films lower then say -20dB peak. we would have far less killing scenes that way if we would jump from the sofa at each shot in a movie.... I found saving privat ryan a good example of what war could feel like and I am glad I have not witnessed it in reality.
now a last point: no dad or mum or friend of one of the dead kids or teachers has had the chance to save their kids / friends / whatever relative here, even if they own arms, carry arms or have arm in their car. but many persons are killed with their own guns, thats a fact at least here in switzerland.
I'd rather live in a place were we trust each other more and have less need to wear arms. many ways to achieve that, non of them requires more firearms, thrust me. our politicians do have some police escort, but even the president of the government is usually on his way through the capital without escort.......
- michael
- swiss, not armed, not intending to be.....
now it's not a generally unsafe place either. we do not issue rounds, except for a small amount sealed and checked at military service. not to say it's impossible to get ammo, but not in the same amount then you would in an other country. if you go practice shooting you'll get ammo at the range, and there are strong atemps to get the arms back into the caserns. some low 10'000 arms are missing or not properly accounted for right now, and sure there will always be a way to get an arm, but at least there is a degree of control. less gun is forced to bring less killed.
by the way: technically it's the bullet that kills, not the gun nor the guy pulling the trigger. and there is a certain degree of control over the ammo we issue on military grade ammo here in switzerland. I think we would all start to feel ill if we would go into detail about rounds fired entering kids stomach or smashing 6 year olds heads, leaving a bloodsheed in front of 'happy' survivors. Films and media should not be allowed to reduce the dynamic range of shooting scenes in films lower then say -20dB peak. we would have far less killing scenes that way if we would jump from the sofa at each shot in a movie.... I found saving privat ryan a good example of what war could feel like and I am glad I have not witnessed it in reality.
now a last point: no dad or mum or friend of one of the dead kids or teachers has had the chance to save their kids / friends / whatever relative here, even if they own arms, carry arms or have arm in their car. but many persons are killed with their own guns, thats a fact at least here in switzerland.
I'd rather live in a place were we trust each other more and have less need to wear arms. many ways to achieve that, non of them requires more firearms, thrust me. our politicians do have some police escort, but even the president of the government is usually on his way through the capital without escort.......
- michael
- swiss, not armed, not intending to be.....
tonycamp
Well-known member
riggler quote; Honestly, that Mossberg 12GA shotgun is way more lethal in my mind in a confined area than an AR-15 or and AK-47 / SKS. I mean an order of magnitude more lethal. I think it's that those guns get a military image and then they become the "bad" ones. end quote;
The absurd rational of the above statement shows the mentality that reasonable people are up against???
Yeah, arm the military with the superior "shot gun" :
The fact is, that the vast majority of us have never witnessed a serious crime Chuck Norris!
Our political and social culture of irrational demonizing and vengeance, has created this reality.
Just BE WHAT U WANT TO SEE. Unfortunately our culture sees violence as an answer to almost everything.
The absurd rational of the above statement shows the mentality that reasonable people are up against???
Yeah, arm the military with the superior "shot gun" :The fact is, that the vast majority of us have never witnessed a serious crime Chuck Norris!
Our political and social culture of irrational demonizing and vengeance, has created this reality.
Just BE WHAT U WANT TO SEE. Unfortunately our culture sees violence as an answer to almost everything.
DaveP said:
They're primarily scared by watching the news. Not by anything they experience in their immediate lives.
Tonycamp, I believe by "those guns" he meant the assault rifles, not the shotguns. My point with the shotguns is not particularly that they are more lethal, but that if you are going to go on a rampage, there's a much more limited amount of damage you can do before you are empty.
If you find yourself, with little experience, in need of a defensive weapon in a confined space, the shotgun will serve you better, between the two. Remember we had a 6 year old lose control of an automatic weapon at a shooting event last year, and the kid shot himself to death as the gun spun around.
A semi-automatic weapon with a lot of ammo is unreasonably lethal if we're playing sitting duck with a large number of unarmed hostages.
JR,
Thanks for that, I think on this occasion you are not wrong! Except maybe about how Americans are viewed and whats on the news here.
In the main you are viewed as powerful cousins that have taken over from us the role of the world's policeman. Culturally you offer a view of the future that we always seem to be playing catch up to, this was much truer in the past than it is now though, due to the internet. The news here is very sympathetic and not trying to make any judgements, because largely we don't understand your love affair with guns, hence all my questions. But we seem to recognise that a line has been crossed here for you, with the victims being so young.
There are a few hundred serious anarchists I'd estimate, but they are anti all government and law and order, its not really about any party they don't like. The big differences in policy in all your states is a bit of a mystery too, it seems ripe for exploitation and the federal government can't really harmonise laws without getting its fingers burned, like they say, politics is the art of the possible.
best
DaveP
Thanks for that, I think on this occasion you are not wrong! Except maybe about how Americans are viewed and whats on the news here.
In the main you are viewed as powerful cousins that have taken over from us the role of the world's policeman. Culturally you offer a view of the future that we always seem to be playing catch up to, this was much truer in the past than it is now though, due to the internet. The news here is very sympathetic and not trying to make any judgements, because largely we don't understand your love affair with guns, hence all my questions. But we seem to recognise that a line has been crossed here for you, with the victims being so young.
There are a few hundred serious anarchists I'd estimate, but they are anti all government and law and order, its not really about any party they don't like. The big differences in policy in all your states is a bit of a mystery too, it seems ripe for exploitation and the federal government can't really harmonise laws without getting its fingers burned, like they say, politics is the art of the possible.
best
DaveP
