how much EQ do you use?

[Svart]

ok, I think this *might* be a topic for the Brewery, but I'll ask it here since it does have much to do with DIY parts..

How much EQ do you find yourself using?

I find myself cutting 15db or more sometimes especially when mixing the drums, usually around 2khz-3khz and 400hz-700hz. there is usually too much brashness and too much mud that need cutting. once i cut those drastically it sounds great. I'm almost convinced that it's my room acoustics because this happens with every mic that I use regardless of modding done.

any opinions or suggestions on how to suck out the mids and mud in room acoustics?

:thumb:

 

[tubejay]

The only eq I ever use on my room sounds are low cut filters at 80Hz. Otherwise, my room sounds sweet with no EQ. The only eq I ever use on drums other than that is to cut around 480Hz on my kick drum mic. I usually end up cutting 5dB or so. That's it. If I want my snare brighter or to have more snap, I add in more of the bottom mic, and that is plenty. My overheads I also tend to use an 80Hz filter on. That usually clears out the low lows so that the there's no phase problems way down in the bottom end of my kick. Occasionally if I have a really boxy sounding tom I'll cut a little 1KHz.

I never boost anything, and generally think a kit sounds best with almost no EQ. Then again, I try not to use any eq at all. The less eq I use, the better the recording turns out.

Compression on the other hand, I use like a freak. I like to use a fair amount of compression, even during tracking.

 

[MikoKensington]

I'm eq whore! I don't eq everything, though. I double mic guitars if I'm recording a band. Especially if I'm not too familiar with them. I use two mics and EQ them so they reciprocate each other. Boost 200Hz on mic one, Cut 200Hz on mic two for an example.

Drums, I boost kick at around 70 or 80 Hz. Then cut that in the overheads. But I also pick my nose and wipe it on my sock.

 

[soundguy]

sometimes I think I come from another planet with my attitude towards discussions about recording technique, but making general statements about EQ doesnt add up to a whole lot to me. I will boost the **** out of stuff with an API 550 and love every minute of it, yet there are other EQ's that I wouldnt think of using to boost anything. I think that passive vs. active EQ's are another thing to note, and obviously if you have a passive EQ with a tube amp you are going to be able to do stuff with that that you would probably do different with a passive eq with a solid state amp. I read people saying "never boost" and I have to laugh. sorry...

IF you are cutting tons to make your room work, try to fix thhe room. lots of hoopla is made about doing it right, I had a box of ceiling tiles, I built some wood frames, glued the tiles in, covered it with fabric and hung them around my very small room which went from sounding nightmarish to sounding quite usable and I did it for the cost of wood and my labor. I didnt wretch my brain on acoustic formulas and I didnt spend $5k on "proper" treatment, I just gave it a shot and while it didnt fix the issue completely, it certainly made things better. I tried that once I saw myself consistently doing a thing on the EQ for the drums...

If you KNOW what you are going to be EQ'ing on the kit, try some time cutting half to tape and then half when you mix, ie, if you know you want a 12 dB cut, cut 6 to tape and 6 on playback and see if it sounds and better. You tend to get more phase shift on the max setting of an EQ and on the stuff I have, the cumulative effect of cutting half, twice, doesnt add up to the same badness that just cutting the 12db all at once does.

As for your original question, I EQ when it needs it and I always EQ more when I have a good sounding EQ. No EQ is a lot of times better than some nasty sounding EQ.

does anyone here find the 1073 EQ to be exceptionally nasal, or am I just insane?

dave

 

[tubejay]

[quote author="soundguy"]I read people saying "never boost" and I have to laugh. sorry...
[/quote]

You can laugh at me until you're blue in the face, I get great sounding drums without boosting anything. I spend a lot of time getting the right mic placement. I also have spent a lot of time finding the right spot to record drums in my room. I have also made a lot of recordings to find out where to baffle my room. I also know where to cut on my eq if something is bothering me.

I use to eq the **** out of everything on the drums. There wasn't a single sound I didn't cut and boost things on. Over time I used them less and less, until I found that boosting things on drums doesn't work FOR ME. I have no doubt that lots of people have great results eqing the **** out of their kits, and get great sounds. I've seen some of the best producers in the business eq the crap out of drum kits with excellent results. In the end, it just doesn't work for me. Again, laugh at me all day long, I've made a lot of recordings, and know what I like, and what sounds good to me. Correct mic placement and mic choice goes a lot further than eq, for me. Most of the bands that come to record with me, do so because I usually am able to capture great sounding drums.

Then again, I like a really natural sounding kit, in a great sounding room. I also don't have any tube based eq's, but don't think I'd use them on drums even if I had them. I really like the sounds I'm getting these days.

I didn't say I didn't boost eq on anything. Sometimes I eq the **** out of guitars, depending on the EQ and the band. I also eq keys and backing vocals a lot to get the sound needed. I don't boost very much, or very often though. However, the better I get as an engineer, and the more tricks I learn, and mics I become familiar with, the less I need to use eq's.

I didn't say that YOU shouldn't use eq. I just was stating what works for me. If my technique makes you laugh, then good...have a good laugh. I say that's a bit closed minded though. There's no right way to record, and to dismiss so condescendingly, a method that many respected (not me) engineers believe very strongly in, is pretty closed minded. My only rule when recording is to do what sounds good. That means little eq, GENERALLY, and especially on drums...TO ME AND MY EAR. Do what sounds good to you, and have good day.

Sometimes the politics of the eq are crazy. I am not an EQ NAZI. I just think if you can do it without it, it USUALLY sounds better in the end. Just like I know that Neve's (mic pres) generally sound better than Mackie's. Not always, but most of the time.

 

[jrmintz]

does anyone here find the 1073 EQ to be exceptionally nasal, or am I just insane?

I've spent some time with Shep 1073s in one studio I work in and the EQ doesn't kill me. I don't know if they're close enough to Neves to be able to generalize. I've never been able to take the time to figure out what bothers me exactly, but I tend to use the mic pres flat and EQ somewhere else later. I like my 1064 a lot better. I do think if you find you're needing tons of EQ all the time then you've got some other issue to deal with, could be acoustics like Dave says or it could be simple mic placement. Or if this is the same drum kit all the time, they might just be lousy sounding or poorly tuned drums. I'm always amazed at how some clients think you can mic ****** sounding drums and EQ them into anything you want.

I did a rock record where the drummer came in with a jazz kit and thin sticks. I asked him to hit harder, which is a place I hate to go with a musician, and he says, "Well, they're old heads and I'm afraid if I hit hard I'll break one." What the hell kind of work ethic is that? You show up to do an album with the wrong drums, the wrong sticks, old heads and no spares? I wound up replacing every drum note on the record with samples except for the tunes where we replaced the drummer altogether.

 

[pucho812]

How much EQ depends on the project. If I started it from the beginning I will usually not use a lot of EQ cause I learned the basics. Listen to the room, listen to the instrument, Know what each mic does and how it reacts/works that way you can match the right mic in the right place. Sounds old I know but it works. Now if I am just mixing a project chances are iwill use alot of EQ because I didn't track it and it may not be what is needed. Too much Eq can cause phase shift. A mastinger engineer friend told me that one should never have to use more then 3 DB of any EQ after all 3 DB is where Humans precieve that it got twice as loud. I always go by that and try and be subtle.

 

[soundguy]

tubejay-

my comment wasnt directed at you at all. there's a cult online that has this attitude towards EQ where you NEVER BOOST so you dont hear the phase shift from the EQ. I think their whole trip is that if you ONLY CUT and NEVER boost, somehow you get a more natural sounding recording. Perhaps that theory goes someplace on paper, but in a practical situation, Ive never seen the passion from where those guys draw their fire on the subject. Ive tried to work like that and it just doesnt work for me and I often wonder if guys that are really into that have access to decent EQ's in the first place. It's that attitude that gets me going, boosting the same freq with an active filter and boosting on a passive inductor *sound* so damn different its silly to me to think these generalities mean a damn thing. Turn the knob until it sounds good, and thats the end of it. These are the same people that will tell you to put a mic 1.5" off the grill of a guitar cab, as if to suggest that there is a different way to set a mic besides LISTENING to it.

Not only are the politics of EQ crazy, but I think the whole business of discussing these things online, as if these decisions are made in a vaccuum. Nearly every single last thing that I see people asking questions about on other boards are so intensely a) user subjective and b)situation specific its really silly for the cult of NEVER to be saying anything. The name of the game is making a recording that sounds good and theres about a million ways to do it. I dont understand why people get into this thing of asking these isloated questions that are completely dependant on circumstances. Ultimately thats the main reason why I really only read this board anymore, all the recording discussion boards are so full of subjective nonsense and people getting bent on it, the great thing here is that we deal mostly in black and white stuff, well, at least in comparison to where to put a mic, thats for sure. Nobody cares what knob was or wasnt turned or which direction it was turned, only that the decision to turn it or not turn it made the sound coming out of the speakers better and not worse and the song, not some cult on the internet, will determine that for you %100 of the time.

dave

 

[tk@halmi]

"The CULT of NEVER". hehe...

Thanks Dave, now I can't get it out of my head.

I would never be a member in the CULT of NEVER!

 

[Svart]

wow i didn't expect to touch on such a controversy!

I'm just curious because it seems that I HAVE to do this everytime with every mic. Once i get those two bands of frequncies under control it sounds great. there hasn't been much change at all with all the recapping, reamping.. although the sound has improved, the problem frequencies have not.

I've tried every mic in every placement i could possibly try but the problem seems to get worse the farther away from the drum i get which leads me to believe that it's picking up reflections in the room and not a problem with tuning or mic choice.

I will make some sound baffles but are there ones specifically for high-mid ranges and mid-bass?

another point of interest, if i speak into the mic(any of them) it sounds great and doesn't need EQ it's only when i track super loud stuff that this problem arises.

any other suggestions?

 

[Scodiddly]

I'm mostly a live sound guy, and I don't like EQing stuff very much. Usually if I find myself cranking the EQ knobs around it means I need to swap mics or something.

 

[Svart]

yes i agree, but as i noted before, I have tried every mic I own and then some i've borrowed and they all are affected in the same way with the same troubling frequencies. however using them on guitar cabs or vocals sounds just fine as long as it's close mic'd. anything mic'd further away starts getting the problem.

mc-012
sp C1
sp B1
mc-219
m201
e200
sm57
D1
and many more.


I'm just hoping that someone can say "yes i've been through this" :green: and give me some ideas. I'm hoping that it's something like room acoustics and not preamp impedence problems.. but then again, voice and DI guitars sound wonderful without even putting the EQ into the chain..

blah this gets me down :sad:

 

[dale116dot7]

I find I eq a lot on drums, especially kick and snare. Overheads not as much, though if the crash has the annoying low-end wobble sometimes I'll eq the overheads a lot too.

Kick I normally boost about 3-5k by a couple dB, and cut the lows by a few dB to keep things from getting too boomy or muddy, but usually not more than 2 to 4 dB either way. Snare - if I'm wishing I picked a different mic or taken the time to set up the bottom mic, I'll eq sometimes drastically. Depends a lot on the snare too. But if I keep getting a cheap sounding boing out of the snare instead of a nice crack and ring, I'll add a bunch of highs (up to about 8dB), and scoop out that boing (usually around 400 to 600 and by sometimes as much as -15dB). But sometimes the cure is worse than the problem because now you've boosted the hat bleed and then you need to add a gate and reverb and..... That's not the room - that's the snare and mic.

Usually happens to me with a cheap snare and SM57, and slightly off positioning of the mic (too far in from the rim). Had I used a C451 (which I did in another session with this kit) and moved the mic closer to the rim (which I also did) my snare EQ would be flat (and it was).

If all sound sources do the same thing, though, I'd guess your room needs some work. I have that problem in my vocal booth and any sound source has the same boom in there, and acoustic work (trapping, diffusion) helps a lot.

 

[NewYorkDave]

I use as much or as little EQ as the job calls for. But in general, I find myself using much less EQ than I did when I was new to recording.

 

[Peter Simonsen]

[quote author="NewYorkDave"]I find myself using much less EQ than I did when I was new to recording.[/quote]

;-)..Something very usefull to learn from this I´d say..very good point and so true I can relate very much to this..

Kind regards

Peter

 

[Svart]

thanks Guys,

Yes i have 5 snares to choose from and many mics, all have their own flavor and i've learned to use each for it's charachter, but the better my equipment gets, the better the sound but the more I find myself troubled by having to EQ the snot out of certain mic tracks. usually my top and bottom are clean and useable as is, but again i have to cut the boom range 400hz to 600hz and that nasal region, 2-3khz especially with cymbals and snare. my Kick is mic'd from inside and gets no bleed from other drums and sounds tight and thumpy without the need to EQ at all. the toms are close mic'd (within 1.5 in) and there is almost no need to EQ them either. mostly just the overheads and the snare, both of which i like an open sound so i back the mics up a bit, but in doing so i get more room which is good, but the ranges i mentioned become terribly boosted.

thanks guys, I'm almost positive that this is the room, which doesn't have much treatment as my equipment was never this good before so it was never seen as a problem. :green:

also, getting rid of highs and lows in a room are easy, but how do you go about killing the mids?

 

[tubejay]

Soundguy,

Sorry, I said I "never" boost on drums, and thought you were quoting me with your quotes. Re-reading what I wrote last night...I kind of flew off the handle a bit. I guess that's because I'm the type of guy who believes you can make cool recordings with just about any technique, and thought you had misunderstood me. I wasnt preaching the "no boost cult" or anything.

I had just spent the last four hours re-wiring my GSSL comp because I used this crappy wire from an old hammond organ that turned out to be brittle. Nothing gets me more aggrivated than having to redo work, and particularly to redo wiring. I hate wiring!!!

I was a little on edge last night!! Like I said, I've seen some the best producers in the business eq the piss out of everything, and it sounded fantastic. It just doesn't work for me...particularly on drums. I also don't have access to very many good eq's. I think if I had a pair of API's I'd probably use them more. I'm hoping that when I'm done building my 1081's I'll have a more useful eq on my hands. I used to have access to some 1081's, and I loved those eq's for guitar and drums (at the time I was in my, eq everything no matter what, phase.

Again, my apologies for over-reacting...a lot.

Here!
:guinness:

 

[Svart]

thanks Butta.

I've been playing drums for 12 years, heres my setup:

Yamaha recording custom
aquarian studio HD heads (the thick one ply) tuned properly(not loose or tight) on the toms.
evans EQ batter on kick(the one with the interchangable muffle rings)
a selection of EVERY brand and style snare heads for both top and bottom(and i really mean EVERY.. i have a stack of heads as tall as I am..)

5 snares in steel, wood, brass and bronze.

I play 5b sticks (japan oak with nylon tips) usually but have just about everything else too.

As you see, the combinations are limitless, but each one is colored by the annoying frequency problems.

I'm still sure it's the room. I guess i could use the scientific method and deaden the room completely and then slowly open up the sound until i notice the problem.

:thumb:

as if the electronics part wasn't enough!

 

[tubejay]

What kind of mic preamps are you using?

 

[Svart]

as for the room, it's 8ft ceiling, cement and hardwood walls with *some* acoustic treatments. the room is 20x 30 with various things like chairs and amps and such scattered around. I have partitions on casters that i can move around a bit to change the shape/size of the room. I've been wondering about treating the room better but haven't been entirely sure until now.

the preamps are in console (alesis X2), which are BJT (2n4403) then ic opamp (5532 but have some 2604 and 2134s). fairly simple and clean, very similar to something I saw on the forum before, but i can't remember what it was, but also very similar to the first stages of the green pre.

I'm working on some other preamps as time permits, one based on the ssm2019 and another based on an opamp designed for ADSL.