If only two mics... ?

[JohnRoberts]

I wasn't generalizing John. I'm thinking of a very specific factory. In the end, you have to pick the people you get into bed with very carefully.

I've been out of those trenches for a couple decades

On the microphone side, I once had a conversation with the manager of the factory who used to make the ECM8000 for Behringer. He was bitching about Behringer wanting to use a cheaper, less consistent 6mm capsule to save about $0.02

I heard similar anecdotes from a major chinese contract manufacturer who was still making SKUs for Behringer when we hired them make SKUs for us (they kept the lines on different floors of the same factory). In fact he suggested that they suffered yield problems because they were forced to use parts too cheap to work.

Loadsa Chinese suppliers complain that their Western customers only want another $0.10 off rather than better quality.

That sounds like the mindset of typical purchasing pukes who fixate on BOM costs instead of big picture total quality issues. I suspect in larger corporations the purchasing agents are overrepresented in the middle of such interactions.

JR

 

[thor.zmt]

MIC is in the same position as Nippon stuff in da 50s & 60s.

I strongly disagree. I spend over a decade in China intimately involved with manufacturing (and also traveling including many places where I was like the first Gweilo ever to go there). I also spent considerable time in Japan.

There are Chinese who want to make the best microphones, speakers, cars etc in the world.

Really? You believe that? Well, I might mention that I do have a bridge in New York for sale. Real Cheap.

What you describe is not something possible in modern, post Mao, post Deng China. People may say that and project it convincingly, but that's just face. I have yet to meet a mainland chinese person in business who is genuinely passionate about what they do, as opposed to just making money.

I cannot exclude that such people exist, many ethnic chinese from Hong Kong or Taiwan are passionate about their business as labour of love, not money maker. This mindset is utterly alien to mainlanders.

As more and more "joint ventures" became less joint and more mainland controlled, as westerners left key positions, quality fade started, in part spurred by larger customers in the west asking:

"Can you make it cheaper?"

Whereas the Japanese, Taiwanese, even Thai's (to say nothing of westerners) will say no at some point, mainland Chinese always say "Yes" and always make their profit.

We might call them Akio Morita / Soichiro Honda for convenience as we mostly don't know who they are at the moment.

I know exactly who they are. They are all named 没有人 (Meiyou Ren).

Trust me, in mainland China only Maiyou Ren givflying Fig about the quality of the product they make for you.

But if I was to go back to making speakers commercially, I would go to a certain factory in Guangzhou; not cos the price, but because they would give me the quality and consistency I want, which our 'Western' factories couldn't/wouldn't do.

I probably know the factory. Not many Speaker makers In GD worth working with. The one I'd use in GZ has the complete engineering team and management transplanted from a certain European country. Chinese do not run the place. That is the big difference.

I prefer a outfit in DG - they are more flexible in what they are willing to try and their quality is decent because they OEM for big names in the west and work at high price levels. I can only get in there through Guanxi. Normally they would not look at such small orders. But it keeps them from getting bored with same old, same old I guess. They are HK run. Including Engineers. Everyone speaks good english.

My favourite PCB/PCBA factory (for mass production only) is Japanese management.

But Gweilo run businesses are all moving out, selling out or just closing shop.

China can make high quality products. But you need to make sure to have your quality assurance people in the process from step one. And it will all cost you. But if you don't, it will cost you worse. Soon even that looks like a no-go area.

I'd bet on Thailand in future, for Quality. And India/Vietnam for Volume.

China is over.

Thor

 

[thor.zmt]

Of course now a couple decades later their capability has likely improved.

While living in Hong Kong I bought and also repaired/modified a lot of 1990's MIC gear. While being completely derivative and unoriginal, actual quality was high because what was made were literally "chinese copies" (in the technical sense) of foreign products. Hand matched transistors and all that jazz. For example "Vincent" Brand Hybrid Amplifiers and Preamplifiers were on the same level as Made in Japan products from the same era.

If I compare that to current Chinese "own brand" products the engineering quality is very poor.

The manufacturing quality often has excellent SMD reflow work coupled with low grade PCB's and horrible soldering of TH components and no cleaning of PCB's.

This is the "Quality fade" I refer to. Because these day's everything is MIC, it is only when you compare to a 90's MIJ or high quality MIC product that you can see just badly quality has been diluted.

Thor

 

[thor.zmt]

Loadsa Chinese suppliers complain that their Western customers only want another $0.10 off rather than better quality.

BUT THEY STILL SAY YES!

That is the problem. And next years purchasing cycle, guess what? The same customer asks again...



And all the big outfit's run on big volume customers to stay in business. And as they reduce the quality of their mainstream production for pianyi de chali they loose the ability to make higher quality products becuase working practices, supply chain etc. adapt to this model.

My experience is that quality that was possible in the early 00's in specific areas for more upmarket products is no longer possible regardless of cost. Quality of the cheapest stuff is improved in some cases, but costs are up hugely too.

The China in the 00's was not that in the 90's, that in the 10's not like that in the 00's and china under Xi in the 20's is a whole other kettle of fish.

Thor

 

[Emmathom]

I agree with the fact that most people in China only cares about profits. Not speaking about manufacturers (I don't deal with them) but sellers (boutiques) 99% of AliExpress or Alibaba shops have no idea (really !) about what they're selling ! Just ask a stupid easy question about (say) a AC/DC converting board (what is the maximum current available ? can you provide 18v instead of 24v ?) and the answer is either a chineese proverbe, or a comment on their own wonderful boutique, or an assurance that you got all their respect and that they will deliver very fast...
Anyway today's world seems less and less interested by communicate with others. Impossible to get a R&D person on the phone neither by email. It's all about selling, maketing, (fast) profits...

 

[thor.zmt]

I heard similar anecdotes from a major chinese contract manufacturer who was still making SKUs for Behringer when we hired them make SKUs for us (they kept the lines on different floors of the same factory). In fact he suggested that they suffered yield problems because they were forced to use parts too cheap to work.

Behringer now have their own vertically integrated factory. Surprisingly, together with the quality fade elsewhere, Behring Products are nowadays worth recommending at and near the pricepoint.

Not because Behringer got better, but because everyone not bought up by them was bought by mainland chinese and their quality is worse.

Again, that is my point of the "China Syndrome" more professionally know as China Quality Fade. It is not strictly the Chinese fault either, but they are the active agents leading to this.

Thor

 

[thor.zmt]

It's all about selling, maketing, (fast) profits...

In a persiflage of Bruce Cockburn:

Idiolatry of Cash and Ideology
It's all spend a buck to make a buck.
Open for business like a cheap Bordello
And they call it Communism

 

[ruffrecords]

For once I agree 100% with Thor. Back in the 90's the company I worked for was responsible for the design of several Dymo label printers and their transformer to Chinese manufacture. Even then, quality took second place to profit and we needed to have people out there most of the time just to make sure they did not cut corners. Even so we got caught out with GP rechargeable batteries. They worked fine at normal room temperature but if you left them in the boot of your car overnight in the Swedish winter (Dymo's parent is Swedish) they would not hold charge. If you need further evidence of the profit first motive, even 30 years ago the big sub-contract manufactures would not even talk to you unless your business was worth over 1 million USD.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ricardo]

which is what happened. Da Western factories are gone and that Guangzhou factory now makes 'our' highest quality stuff.

I'm sure there were many like Thor in da 50s & 60s who considered all Japanese stuff crap and that there were no Japanese passionate about what they do.

In this case, that Guangzhou factory makes some of the highest quality speakers in the world with probably the best consistency & QA.

I'm biased cos I had a big hand in this. But it wouldn't have been possible without the mainland Chinese management, engineers, and workers involved .. but that's a story for another day

 

[k brown]

I'm surprised no one has suggested a MS setup. Not sure if this is convenient for you as it's difficult to monitor conveniently as you have to turn the mono & side signals into L & R to hear your final product.

But with ORTF & 'conventional' Blumlein XY, important stuff in the centre is well off-axis of your main mikes.

With MS, the important centre stuff will be picked up 'on-axis' of the M mike.

There's a good inexpensive AKG SDC Fig-8 if you can't afford a Schoeps or Sennheiser.

There's a load of liquid BS by Williams (?) on 'recording angle' on AES and other august collections that is nearly as idiotic as da arguments on 'waz is ein' Decca tree.

I side with cfanzalone & Thor to listen and let your ears decide.

I designed the Mk4 Soundfield and had a lot to do with TetraMic so am the last remaining High Priest of Ambisonic Tetrahedral mikes. But I hesitate to recommend an Ambisonic mike as I don't want to sound like a cult prophet

Blumlein and XY are two different techniques; Blumlein is coincident figure-8s at 90 degrees and XY is generally considered to be coincident cardioids at 90 to 100 degrees; they sound completely different.

DPA website also incorrectly includes the Blumlein technique in their description of XY (very odd).
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-...ction/stereo-recording-techniques-and-setups/

 

[MicMaven]

That sounds like the mindset of typical purchasing pukes who fixate on BOM costs instead of big picture total quality issues. I suspect in larger corporations the purchasing agents are overrepresented in the middle of such interactions.

Hi @JohnRoberts -- your comment reminds me of my friend who was once on the Board of Directors at Fender Music Instruments Corp. One day, he waxed eloquent about how every other tube was wonky, and how they should just buy equivalent transistors for cheap, and quit wasting time on wonky tubes. After all, "parts is parts" and "100 watts is 100 watts, anyway you get them," um, right? He went so far as openly admit the "guys at the factory" told him he "did not understand."

I told him I agree with the guys at at he factory.

I did not take time to explain why he was wrong, or why Brian May still uses a crappy old VOX amp with tubes, as we were on our way to the funeral of a fallen mutual friend. Besides, I doubt it would have done any good. AS CEO of one of the largest office furniture manufacturers, he is not especially open to criticism . . . You know the type - as boss, he knows stinking EVERYTHING about ... well everything. After all, he sometimes walked around the plan to see what goes on down there . . . you know the type.

James

 

[JohnRoberts]

Behringer now have their own vertically integrated factory. Surprisingly, together with the quality fade elsewhere, Behring Products are nowadays worth recommending at and near the pricepoint.

Not because Behringer got better, but because everyone not bought up by them was bought by mainland chinese and their quality is worse.

Again, that is my point of the "China Syndrome" more professionally know as China Quality Fade. It is not strictly the Chinese fault either, but they are the active agents leading to this.

Thor

I am fully aware of the Behringer factory story. I won't opine about China manufacturing today because my first hand experience was last century.

Hi @JohnRoberts -- your comment reminds me of my friend who was once on the Board of Directors at Fender Music Instruments Corp. One day, he waxed eloquent about how every other tube was wonky, and how they should just buy equivalent transistors for cheap, and quit wasting time on wonky tubes. After all, "parts is parts" and "100 watts is 100 watts, anyway you get them," um, right? He went so far as openly admit the "guys at the factory" told him he "did not understand."

I told him I agree with the guys at at he factory.

I did not take time to explain why he was wrong, or why Brian May still uses a crappy old VOX amp with tubes, as we were on our way to the funeral of a fallen mutual friend. Besides, I doubt it would have done any good. AS CEO of one of the largest office furniture manufacturers, he is not especially open to criticism . . . You know the type - as boss, he knows stinking EVERYTHING about ... well everything. After all, he sometimes walked around the plan to see what goes on down there . . . you know the type.

James

That sounds crazy... I have a friend currently working at a high level inside Fender engineering and he knows the difference between vacuum tubes and transistors.

JR

 

[thor.zmt]

I'm sure there were many like Thor in da 50s & 60s who considered all Japanese stuff crap and that there were no Japanese passionate about what they do.

Actually, I have seen some of that stuff in Japanese "Retro" Shops in Tokyo. It was also entirely derivative, but quality was not that bad, compared to say west german (never mind east german) production.

Whereas Japan went upmarket and up quality to the point where "Made In Japan" is almost the ultimate marque of distinction and quality, China in general went the opposite way.

In this case, that Guangzhou factory makes some of the highest quality speakers in the world with probably the best consistency & QA.

Good on you to have them. In 2020 consistency is not hard. One of the DG factories I worlk with now use robots for anything involving dispensing glue. They still have a lot of people on the line, but all job's that need consistency are done by robots or their suppliers.

I'm biased cos I had a big hand in this. But it wouldn't have been possible without the mainland Chinese management, engineers, and workers involved .. but that's a story for another day

If the factory is full on mainland Chinese management and engineering, you must have found the singular sole factory that makes it so. Unless of course it's someone like Foxconn or one of the other big few. But then, these all have Taiwan, HK or JP management, not mainland.

Wavecor is in Zhongshan and has (or at least had) significant foreign involvement, their work is excellent but not cheap. Depends what product you make.

Anyway, even if you found the one single exception to rule that most purely mainland chinese factories have the reverse Midas touch on products, as we say in Germany, by their very nature the exceptions reinforce the rule.



Thor

 

[ccaudle]

inside Fender engineering and he knows the difference between vacuum tubes and transistors

Presumably why they let the engineering department design the amplifiers and not the board of directors.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Presumably why they let the engineering department design the amplifiers and not the board of directors.

Actually a fair question for a director at least in a public corporation. Public directors represent shareholders so too much focus on obsolete(?) technology could be questioned. That said Fender is privately owned so board directors represent the owner (TPG Growth).

JR