If only two mics... ?

[ricardo]

BTW, there are some caveats about using the Calrec Soundfield Mk4 in Stereo due to my not actually using it for stereo until I left Calrec.

The most damning is that the Stereo output is out of phase. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

 

[thor.zmt]

As I said earlier, I'm the last remaining High Priest of Tetrahedral Ambisonic mikes

Not really. A (chinese) customer wanted a livestreaming Mic that was different. I tried to get him sold on a first order Amisonic Mic, on the principle that Ambisonic is de-factor VR audio and this could be used for example in nature for an immersive Audio experience.

Extensive DSP build in to reliably make livescreamers sound ok, so compressor, autotune, reverb, sampled sound FX. Nice Brass 25mm Electret capsules. Wired USB or Wireless (aptX . I had intended a secondary software option for "recording" use. And a second version with polarisation and real condensor capsules.

Customer declined and instead got his brand screened on a BM800 and "livestreaming sound card". Last I looked the bundle was still for sale on Taobao for less than factory cost.

I got to try a Calrec Soundfield in the front of my "Triangular Microphone setup with dimensions similar to a Decca Tree and similar general intention, that is however nothing like a Decca Tree to appease certain people". I liked it, but I would probably have needed a lot more time to get the measure of it and get the best out of it. Alas, even 5th or 6th hand the price was insane for me.

If anyone wants to DIY one (worth a try), the new Chinese Brass 25mm Capsules are probably a good call for a first try. More details here:

Soundfield microphone by K Farrar · WW October 1979

My Fantasy Audio Christmas Present - SoundField Ambisonics Microphone

Make a 3D printed tetrahedron to hold the capsules.



Electronics are unchallenging.

It's probably one of the most interesting microphones to DIY and the answer to "what is the best single microphone to record classical music with".

Thor

 

[thor.zmt]

There are only 2 arrangements that accurately capture the sound of a good hall.

• Blumlein coincident Fig 8s @ 90 which also gives very good localisation of sources on speaker playback
• Omnis. Spaced omnis give good sound and usually have better LF than modern Fig 8s or cardioids except TetraMic. But localisation is non-existent.

Place a baffle behind the Blumlein array (to limit rear pickup) and place your spaced Omni's in a configuration that would be called by many a Decca Tree.

Except it is not actually by Decca, does not use the distinct flown "tree" structure, uses different microphones to the original Decca Tree and mustn't be called anything remotely like "Decca tree", lest the universe collapses and is replaced by something even more incomprehensible and challenging than what we have now. Some say that somebody already said that though.

Other coincident or semi-coincident configurations can be used in front.

The sound processing should be obvious. Front pair main stereo Array, Lowpass on the Omni's as "bass fill in" for the front array's rather castrated bass, extra level controls on a gently sloped down (x-curve) filtered Omni full bandwidth. Back in the 80's I had a pre/mixer combo box I made (as part of my Tonmeister "Meisterstueck") for this with Mic's being generally Microtech Gefell.

Seems this is kinda used quite frequently these days. I "invented" (I am sure a dozen guys will jump up and claim they did it before me - probably - not claiming priority, just independent work) this setup in the 80's in what was then communist East Germany. I can recommend it.

Thor

 

[k brown]

I was referring to using a Calrec Soundfield or TetraMic for STEREO. Agree with you mostly on surround though I live & hope

There's an interesting phenomena for those using a properly calibrated soundfield for the first time in a good hall. They always start off with their favourite mike arrangements quite near the performers

Then little by little, they move the mike back and twiddle the patterns and invariably end up with Fig 8s @ 90 placed where it sounds best to the Mk1 Human Head.

At this point, they generally say, this cannot be and start over again

This was John Atkinson's experience when he used it for the first time. He didn't believe me when I told him that was what would happen.

Doesn't surprise a bit; Blumlein is the only coincident technique I ever found listenable.

 

[Emmathom]

Not really. A (chinese) customer wanted a livestreaming Mic that was different. I tried to get him sold on a first order Amisonic Mic, on the principle that Ambisonic is de-factor VR audio and this could be used for example in nature for an immersive Audio experience.

Extensive DSP build in to reliably make livescreamers sound ok, so compressor, autotune, reverb, sampled sound FX. Nice Brass 25mm Electret capsules. Wired USB or Wireless (aptX . I had intended a secondary software option for "recording" use. And a second version with polarisation and real condensor capsules.

If anyone wants to DIY one (worth a try), the new Chinese Brass 25mm Capsules are probably a good call for a first try. More details here:

Soundfield microphone by K Farrar · WW October 1979

My Fantasy Audio Christmas Present - SoundField Ambisonics Microphone

Make a 3D printed tetrahedron to hold the capsules.

View attachment 141809

Electronics are unchallenging.

It's probably one of the most interesting microphones to DIY and the answer to "what is the best single microphone to record classical music with".

Thor

Interesting...
No phantom needed (electret) / RJ45 CAT8 cable for 4 outputs ?
So you got 4 separate outputs = is it possible to mix them in a stereo way and how ?
And what does each of them (4 mics) record ? left, right, front & rear ?
Please tell us more about this setup... (I guess it needs a special interface between the mic and an external pre...)

 

[MicMaven]

For sure, but probably the CEO and definitely the head of the guitar amp division should have a ready answer.
Maybe James's friend was just making small talk and didn't care enough to actually bring it up to the CEO

Sure they did! And it was NOT just small talk. The guy is so dag blamed cock sure he knows everything because, after all HE is on the BOARD, don't-cha ya know - shoot, you cannot tell him anything. He told me the guys in the factory tried to explain it, but he wrote them off as dumb factory workers. I cannot account for that degree of arrogance.

So, you guys might understand WHY I WORKED ALONE most of my career, instead of grubbing for a big corporate entity. I tend to speak my mind ... James

 

[Emmathom]

Hi

By starting this topic "If only two mics...?" I did not mean to have only one pair of mics, but to use (if possible) only one pair at a time...
Concerning my own setup and knowing that I record almost only acoustic ensembles in rather large places, I will limit my equipment to one SDC omni pair (LA Omni1) + one SDC cardio pair (DIY Schoeps-like) + one fixed ORTF (Superlux S502 v1 with @MicUlli PCB) + one LDC cardio-omni-fig8 pair with Ari K47flat (t.bone SC1100 modified).

I have a sE2300 (3 pattern) to resell but can't get a buyer for weeks so I'm thinking about keeping it but with capsule replacement (because the sE capsules are their weak point while their electronics are fine - they announce 9dB self-noise - which I doubt). I have also a DIY 6AK5 LDC cardio pair that I like on strings (cello, double bass) and harpiscord.

About different 2 mics setup's and regarding your comments I noticed that :

- Blumein can be set if the room is not too vast (because of fig8 rear lobes capturing reverb) > 2 SC1100 in fig8
- ORTF is great for sound spacing & precision (but not well suited for mono listening > but I don't care about those who listen in mono) > S502
- AB is great for the sound, the feeling of the acoustic, the "truh" of the sound (but not precise to locate instruments in space) > LA Omni1 pair
- XY for small ensemble & close palyers (like a duo violin + cello for example) > "Schoeps-like" cardio pair
- a 3 mics arrangement, strictly Decca or inspired by > 2 SC1100 @ rear + sE2300 tweaked @ front (or LA Omni1 pair @ rear + one LDC in front)

In another hand, these gear (3 SDC pairs + 1 LDC multi pair + 1 tube LDC cardio pair + 1 LDC multi) allows me to make lots of close micking configurations when needed

 

[Emmathom]

The sound processing should be obvious. Front pair main stereo Array, Lowpass on the Omni's as "bass fill in" for the front array's rather castrated bass, extra level controls on a gently sloped down (x-curve) filtered Omni full bandwidth. Back in the 80's I had a pre/mixer combo box I made (as part of my Tonmeister "Meisterstueck") for this with Mic's being generally Microtech Gefell.

I did some days ago a recording of a sextet with a friend who brought a Schoeps cardio pair. We set his mics in ORTF at front and my LA Omni1 at sides and we recorded 4 tracks only.
Back to monitoring, well the fact is that the Schoeps don't lack bass at all and there was no point in adding some of the omni's, filtered or not.
The 2 stereo tracks are very different soudning (of course), both very interesting but not able to be melted in any way. The Schoeps have been kept on the LA (also because they have been set too spaced from each other I must confess).

And yes, we noticed that even if the omni's sound great (really), the placement of the musicians is not precise compare to the Schoeps in ORTF where you can say where is the cello, where is the solo violin, etc

 

[Drea]

2 u48

 

[cfanzalone]

Thank some of you, finally, for bring these postings back to "if only 2 mics"...WOW, did this get off base!!!... But even now I still see more about configuration techniques than I do about mics...I have to chuckle at the end my last post scores ago: "So be it for the rest of you to debate this to death."
...And so it seems it had for quite some time. My favorite 2-3 mics used for ensemble situations are Earthworks QTC1's, Sahe's "Little Blondies" (Phenomenal affordable mics, but with a unique polar pattern), Long ribbons in a M-S array with a QTC1 center...If you like Cardioid, the Oktava MK102's are decent (mine are modified), but I rarely use Cardioids...
Have fun now!

 

[Emmathom]

@cfanzalone I couldn't find any brand website or reseller for the Sahe Little Blondies... I think they play in the same game as Line Audio Omni1. Electret, small, great souding... ?
Yes Earthworks make wonderful mics ! I can't find either QTC1. Not for sell neither its datasheet. QTC1 is a measurement or a music mic ?
I had an Oktava full pattern pair. They were "ok". In a blind test (here in groupdiy) against Warm Audio WA84 they were far behind... At this price range (~600€ a pair) I prefer sE8 with cardio & omni capsules which sound great.

Don't you have "placement issues" with omnis ? I mean you can't "visualize" musicians' placement when listening to your recording ?

 

[Cqwet Dbdfte]

**) It just got rather philosophical now. Someone is bound to quote Torah soon.

... only if the mikes are circumcised.

 

[Cqwet Dbdfte]

I was referring to using a Calrec Soundfield or TetraMic for STEREO. Agree with you mostly on surround though I live & hope

There's an interesting phenomena for those using a properly calibrated soundfield for the first time in a good hall. They always start off with their favourite mike arrangements quite near the performers

Then little by little, they move the mike back and twiddle the patterns and invariably end up with Fig 8s @ 90 placed where it sounds best to the Mk1 Human Head.

At this point, they generally say, this cannot be and start over again

This was John Atkinson's experience when he used it for the first time. He didn't believe me when I told him that was what would happen.

Close miking and mixing/postprocessing versus Blumlein style recording would be issues of taste, customer demand and expectations, technical limitations ( a very long list).
Many classical orchestral recordings were done with 3 mikes and positioning of performers, which sound great.
For non-aucoustic instruments there is not an obvious acoustical experience, so a binaural or Blumlein type setup would not be an obvious choice.
The well received "Jazz at the pawnshop" from 1978, was done with 7 ,or so, tube Neumann's, mixed live into a Nagra tape recorder, with banter and a cashregister clinking in the background. I too think it sounds great, many early jazz recordings were done with "simple" setups to good effect.

Warum einfach, wenn es auch kompliziert geht?

 

[Khron]

Yes Earthworks make wonderful mics ! I can't find either QTC1. Not for sell neither its datasheet. QTC1 is a measurement or a music mic ?

That datasheet-looking PDF is the third result in a Google search for "QTC1". How and what did you search for, that came up with no useful results?

 

[Barry Hufker]

In my experience, I think the idea that classical orchestras are recorded with 3 mics is not entirely accurate or common. In my experience, only Telarc did that. Based on what I have seen personally, professional orchestras are often recorded with 10 to 14 mics. Certainly Deutsche Grammophon is famous (notorious?) for how they recorded them. Marc Aubort of Elite Recordings, used that many but mixed to two-track. Richard King uses quite a few, and there are many other examples.

It comes down to flexibility and "CYA," where making the recording is so expensive that the engineer has to be sure they have control given the limited session time and high session costs. Sound is important to them, but so is making sure they are "covered." A performance can be "enhanced" (fixed?) in the "control room" by the engineer/producer adjusting a mic. level, rather than spending the time to arrange performers into an unfamiliar configuration or getting some of them to "play louder/softer."

Even the concerts of the Saint Louis Symphony are multi-mic'd as the idea of "The Hollywood Sound" has crept into the concert hall. The musicians have grown up hearing orchestras in film and expect to hear that sound in their recordings and broadcasts.

I love the idea of recording smaller ensembles as the use of real stereo mic'ing is still possible and enjoyable. I am for using simple techniques whenever possible. I firmly believe in the idea that there needs to be a good reason why another mic is used after you put up the first two. I was firmly taught, "use as many microphones as you need, never more, never fewer."

 

[Emmathom]

That datasheet-looking PDF is the third result in a Google search for "QTC1". How and what did you search for, that came up with no useful results?

Thank you. Well it seems my "french Google version" does not perform as yours... (not first time you find what I don't)

 

[k brown]

In my experience, I think the idea that classical orchestras are recorded with 3 mics is not entirely accurate or common. In my experience, only Telarc did that. Based on what I have seen personally, professional orchestras are often recorded with 10 to 14 mics. Certainly Deutsche Grammophon is famous (notorious?) for how they recorded them. Marc Aubort of Elite Recordings, used that many but mixed to two-track. Richard King uses quite a few, and there are many other examples.

It comes down to flexibility and "CYA," where making the recording is so expensive that the engineer has to be sure they have control given the limited session time and high session costs. Sound is important to them, but so is making sure they are "covered." A performance can be "enhanced" (fixed?) in the "control room" by the engineer/producer adjusting a mic. level, rather than spending the time to arrange performers into an unfamiliar configuration or getting some of them to "play louder/softer."

Even the concerts of the Saint Louis Symphony are multi-mic'd as the idea of "The Hollywood Sound" has crept into the concert hall. The musicians have grown up hearing orchestras in film and expect to hear that sound in their recordings and broadcasts.

I love the idea of recording smaller ensembles as the use of real stereo mic'ing is still possible and enjoyable. I am for using simple techniques whenever possible. I firmly believe in the idea that there needs to be a good reason why another mic is used after you put up the first two. I was firmly taught, "use as many microphones as you need, never more, never fewer."

The three spaced omnis approach is often termed 'M3'.

For the last many years of it's existence Telarc stopped using it since they got heavily into surround, so then it became various rather complex mic arrangements.

The most famous outfit that used pure M3 for all it's stereo releases was Mercury Living Presence. From fairly early on (as soon as they were able to obtain three) they used three Schoeps M 201 mics, which though they contained two capsules, a bidirectional LDC and an Omni SDC, they only ever used the output from the omni capsule.

_________

I'll correct you a bit on Aubort; it was very rare for him to use as many as 14 mics. Most of his work was a spaced pair of omnis and just a handful of spots. If the orchestra was unusually large, he would add a pair of 'outriggers'.

During the rather brief quad era, another pair out in the hall would be added for the rear channels.

All mics were tube SDCs (Schoeps M 221 b) with capsules that could switch between omni and card. Mains set to omni, spots and rear hall mics on card.

 

[Barry Hufker]

When I attended Marc's sessions with the St. Louis Symphony (and if I recall correctly) he used 10 mics, and told me when I interviewed him for "Studio Sound" magazine that it could be as many as 14 (which he did say was rare). The rest of what you say I know and agree with. I appreciate your posting! It's always fun to talk about Marc and Joanna.

 

[k brown]

@cfanzalone I couldn't find any brand website or reseller for the Sahe Little Blondies... I think they play in the same game as Line Audio Omni1. Electret, small, great souding... ?
Yes Earthworks make wonderful mics ! I can't find either QTC1. Not for sell neither its datasheet. QTC1 is a measurement or a music mic ?
I had an Oktava full pattern pair. They were "ok". In a blind test (here in groupdiy) against Warm Audio WA84 they were far behind... At this price range (~600€ a pair) I prefer sE8 with cardio & omni capsules which sound great.

Don't you have "placement issues" with omnis ? I mean you can't "visualize" musicians' placement when listening to your recording ?

When you speak of the imaging of spaced omnis, you need to specify what their spacing was; the stereo image they produce is entirely based on the distance between them.

A spacing that combines fairly accurate imaging with a euphonic 'bloom' is right around two feet (Tony Faulkner uses 26-27"); as you get any wider than that the middle becomes weaker and weaker till you get just two 'pools' of sound around the left and right speakers with little happening in the center.

Here is an excellent online tool for graphically displaying the approximate image width produced by various stereo pairs: https://sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-AB60-E.htm

You'll find that the main arrays used by most of the major labels during the heyday of the Classical record business did not produce technically accurate stereo imaging; rather they produced a pleasing, engaging and 'plausible' stereo image. Only a couple of 'boutique' labels used coincident mics for the main pickup. Aubort referred to coincident techniques as "fat mono".

 

[Emmathom]

When you speak of the imaging of spaced omnis, you need to specify what their spacing was; the stereo image they produce is entirely based on the distance between them.

A spacing that combines fairly accurate imaging with a euphonic 'bloom' is right around two feet (Tony Faulkner uses 26-27"); as you get any wider than that the middle becomes weaker and weaker till you get just two 'pools' of sound around the left and right speakers with litt;e happening in the center.

Yes I admited yet that I spaced my omnis way too far (6 feet or so). That was my first try with my Omni1 pair.
I should have been closer to musicians (~7 feet instead of 12), ~1,5 feet max. appart (instead of 6 feet) and higher (10 feet high instead of 6)
I did all wrong... but I learnt !