If only two mics... ?

[Emmathom]

As a Canadian now living in France, I can tell you that France (to my knowledge) has THE MOST subsidised Culture Sector that I know of, In the Western Hemisphere. And I have worked in many countries in my 35 years active in this sector. An article just came out, on how French artists (totally unknown outside France) are asking €80 000 for a single show in small Town Festivals. An artist (J-M Jarre-I love his old albums) I know for sure, asked for 1 Million Euros to play in a Southern town!!!
And the "Intermitent" system, plus the grants that I know people get is unheard of/inexistant elsewhere in Europe or North America.
There is money, maybe less than before, but there is plenty. You and I need to talk one day.

Bon courage and keep going mate!
M

Well, to get "an artistic rent" from the government in France you have to collect a minimum of hours regarding a maximum number of months. I think it's 520 hours in 8 months which means : 4h counted for a concert = 520 / 4 = 130 shows in 8 months ! (which is such a goal)

The musicians I work with are professionnals, yes, but the concerts they do are in small towns, far away from big cities. These shows attract like 50-80 people per concert (maximum) and I know they get ~200€ each for the show. And I know that if I ask them to pay for being recorded they would decline : as they already told me they don't need and care about being recorded... In another hand, when they need a video clip, I get paid for that job.

It's not a big issue since I'm 62 now and I can do it for my pleasure because I have plenty of time free. I learn a lot this way and I'm harvesting examples to feed my FB pro page that I intend to open spring 2025. Maybe one of these days it will help me to ask for some money but I know it will never allow me to become rich. Just pay my gas would already be great

Regards

 

[Migs 31]

Well, to get "an artistic rent" from the government in France you have to collect a minimum of hours regarding a maximum number of months. I think it's 520 hours in 8 months which means : 4h counted for a concert = 520 / 4 = 130 shows in 8 months ! (which is such a goal)

The musicians I work with are professionnals, yes, but the concerts they do are in small towns, far away from big cities. These shows attract like 50-80 people per concert (maximum) and I know they get ~200€ each for the show. And I know that if I ask them to pay for being recorded they would decline : as they already told me they don't need and care about being recorded... In another hand, when they need a video clip, I get paid for that job.

It's not a big issue since I'm 62 now and I can do it for my pleasure because I have plenty of time free. I learn a lot this way and I'm harvesting examples to feed my FB pro page that I intend to open spring 2025. Maybe one of these days it will help me to ask for some money but I know it will never allow me to become rich. Just pay my gas would already be great

Regards

Like I said before, we have to talk one day you and I - have a café croissants

In the meantime, how are you getting on with your pursuit: « only two mics »?

Did you build yourself a pair of C414 from VAMI? Or are you going for SDC?

All the best !
M

 

[Emmathom]

Like I said before, we have to talk one day you and I - have a café croissants

In the meantime, how are you getting on with your pursuit: « only two mics »?

Did you build yourself a pair of C414 from VAMI? Or are you going for SDC?

All the best !
M

I detailed my gear and "philosophy" at post #107
No I'm leaving C414 aside for the moment.

I live in Brittany : where do you live (for our "café & croissants" ? )

Thank you and all the best to you too

 

[Migs 31]

I detailed my gear and "philosophy" at post #107
No I'm leaving C414 aside for the moment.

I live in Brittany : where do you live (for our "café & croissants" ? )

Thank you and all the best to you too

Ok,
I will re-wind the tape to Post #107.

I’m in East of Paris.
Brittany is beautifull, I was in Saint-Malo not that long ago, stunning!!!

Café-croissants will be on me.

M

 

[Emmathom]

Ok,
I will re-wind the tape to Post #107.

I’m in East of Paris.
Brittany is beautifull, I was in Saint-Malo not that long ago, stunning!!!

Café-croissante will be on me.

M

I live above St Brieuc, near Paimpol, in Côtes d'Armor. I planned to get to Paris in spring time for a couple of days (I go to Paris 3-4 times a year) : I'll let you know

 

[k brown]

Actually one of ORTF's problems and even more for XY with cardioids is that it always sounds like mono.

Well it depends how wide you like your stereo... Natural ? Really spatial ? As I already said (many times) the sextet we I recorded last time with a Schoeps pair set in ORTF is fully detailled and I can re-position the instrument where they exactly were (can say so because I was there). I can post (on demand) an excerpt.

Anyway...

Since I'm the one who opened this thread does it allow me to change topic ? Because reading above (about the electret omni capsules) pushes me to ask a few questions :
- if DPA & Earthworks (to name those) use cheap electret capsules* then what makes their "magnificent" sound ? (btw I didn't know 4006 had an OPT...)
- I'm pretty sure some of you have already built a clone of these mics : reviewsome feedback ?

Here's the DPA4006 schematic & inside pict. (found on another thread and posted by RuuDNL & Whoops)

* cheap regarding some LDC high-quality capsules

I don't know if anybody said DPA use cheap electrets - I know I didn't.

Though DPA mics ARE electrets, they do make their own and are of VERY high quality; they don't cull mass-produced capsules made by an OEM company. They are not the little aluminum-cased built-in FET jobs you see in some products.

There is nothing inherently "cheap" about a mic that has an electret capsule; it's just one way of makng a condenser capsule - the polarization can be permanently applied, or supplied from an external voltage. DPA, Audio Technica, Shure and AKG all have some excellent mics in their lines that just happen to use electret capsules.

It just so happens that the vast majority of cheap, mass-produced generic capsules are of the electret type. All the ones with FETs built are of this type. Primo has made some very fine-sounding, inexpensive built-in FET capsules (EM200, EM273), but they are exceptions.

DPAs sound 'magnificent' because of their brilliantly-designed and finely-made capsules (that just happen to be electrets); the electronics are not really that special (except for the high-voltage models).

 

[Emmathom]

I don't know if anybody said DPA use cheap electrets - I know I didn't.

Though DPA mics ARE electrets, they do make their own and are of VERY high quality; they don't cull mass-produced capsules made by an OEM company. They are not the little aluminum-cased built-in FET jobs you see in some products.

There is nothing inherently "cheap" about a mic that has an electret capsule; it's just one way of makng a condenser capsule - the polarization can be permanently applied, or supplied from an external voltage. DPA, Audio Technica, Shure and AKG all have some excellent mics in their lines that just happen to use electret capsules.

It just so happens that the vast majority of cheap, mass-produced generic capsules are of the electret type. All the ones with FETs built are of this type. Primo has made some very fine-sounding, inexpensive built-in FET capsules (EM200, EM273), but they are exceptions.

DPAs sound 'magnificent' because of their brilliantly-designed and finely-made capsules (that just happen to be electrets); the electronics are not really that special (except for the high-voltage models).

I'm glad to learn that there's "something particular" in these DPA / Earthworks omni mics : their capsules ! I guess you can't find them as parts since they are © and built by the concerned brands (except for Earthworks)

No one answer yet to the question : did someone here already made a clone of these omni-electret reference mics ? Since we have the schematic... and could use an omni Primo (?) > or it's what is already done (or so) in the Line Audio Omni1 ?

I ask this question because we see here a lot of "SDC clone projects" of KM84, Schoeps, mostly cardio's then... but none (?) of a "magnificient" omni SDC based on electret...

Regards

 

[Khron]

I ask this question because we see here a lot of "SDC clone projects" of KM84, Schoeps, mostly cardio's then... but none (?) of a "magnificient" omni SDC based on electret...

Well, you'd need to figure out your own mechanical solution, but...

https://groupdiy.com/threads/feeler...fet-u87a-fet847-ors87-plus.87606/post-1160410

 

[Emmathom]

Well, you'd need to figure out your own mechanical solution, but...

https://groupdiy.com/threads/feeler...fet-u87a-fet847-ors87-plus.87606/post-1160410

Great @Khron ! Will read this thread with attention !
Bravo !

 

[k brown]

I'm glad to learn that there's "something particular" in these DPA / Earthworks omni mics : their capsules ! I guess you can't find them as parts since they are © and built by the concerned brands (except for Earthworks)

No one answer yet to the question : did someone here already made a clone of these omni-electret reference mics ? Since we have the schematic... and could use an omni Primo (?) > or it's what is already done (or so) in the Line Audio Omni1 ?

I ask this question because we see here a lot of "SDC clone projects" of KM84, Schoeps, mostly cardio's then... but none (?) of a "magnificient" omni SDC based on electret...

Regards

I don't think you're reading these posts very carefully - My comments about the quality of DPA capsules did not include Earthworks.

As already described above, Earthworks do use cheap off-the-shelf electrets but extensively cull them, and optimize their potential with well-designed electronics.

I highly doubt anyone has 'cloned' a DPA, because as you say, they don't make only the capsules available to the public.

___________

Probably the best DIY omni from inexpensive, readily available parts would be what @MicUlli posted using the Primo EM273. https://groupdiy.com/threads/primo-em273-with-p48-phantom-power-supply.80309/
This is the same capsule that Line Audio modifies for use in the Omni1, but it sounds pretty stellar in stock form too.

With my EM273s, I took the lazy route, since I already had the parts, and used the circuit boards from Audio Technica AT841 boundary mics which supply the correct capsule voltage and only needed to have the capsule load resistor changed to 5k. Then only the capsules needed to be inside the mic bodies which were mini-plug shells.

Probably the best omni capsule readily available retail would be the Rode NT45-O, which could be used with any DIY flat-response FET circuit that provides capsule polarization, many examples of which have been posted on this forum.
https://www.amazon.com/Rode-NT45-O/dp/B000KEJAUW

 

[jeremynothman]

Well, to get "an artistic rent" from the government in France you have to collect a minimum of hours regarding a maximum number of months. I think it's 520 hours in 8 months which means : 4h counted for a concert = 520 / 4 = 130 shows in 8 months ! (which is such a goal)

The musicians I work with are professionnals, yes, but the concerts they do are in small towns, far away from big cities. These shows attract like 50-80 people per concert (maximum) and I know they get ~200€ each for the show. And I know that if I ask them to pay for being recorded they would decline : as they already told me they don't need and care about being recorded... In another hand, when they need a video clip, I get paid for that job.

It's not a big issue since I'm 62 now and I can do it for my pleasure because I have plenty of time free. I learn a lot this way and I'm harvesting examples to feed my FB pro page that I intend to open spring 2025. Maybe one of these days it will help me to ask for some money but I know it will never allow me to become rich. Just pay my gas would already be great

Regards

I understand that you’re saying that an “artistic rent” wouldn’t apply to you anyway, but surely one counts more than purely the recording hours.
What about planning, mixing, etc?

 

[Emmathom]

I don't think you're reading these posts very carefully - My comments about the quality of DPA capsules did not include Earthworks.

I read carefully and that's why I added "except for Earthworks" because I've read what you said about their capsules in post #127

As already described above, Earthworks do use cheap off-the-shelf electrets but extensively cull them, and optimize their potential with well-designed electronics.

I highly doubt anyone has 'cloned' a DPA, because as you say, they don't make only the capsules available to the public.

Probably the best DIY omni from readily available parts would be what @MicUlli posted using the Primo EM273. https://groupdiy.com/threads/primo-em273-with-p48-phantom-power-supply.80309/
This is the same capsule that Line Audio modifies for use in the Omni1, but it sounds pretty stellar in stock form too.

Will read

Probably the best omni capsule readily available retail would be the Rode NT45-O, which could be used with any DIY flat-response FET circuit that provides capsule poalrization.
https://www.amazon.com/Rode-NT45-O/dp/B000KEJAUW

Really ? Other sdc omni capsules can be bought as part (sE8 / WA84 / 3U) but if you say so... then Rode needs maybe a try !

 

[Emmathom]

I understand that you’re saying that an “artistic rent” wouldn’t apply to you anyway, but surely one counts more than purely the recording hours.
What about planning, mixing, etc?

I was referring to musicians who needs to get that "gouv. artistic rent" to pay me with it and not for me directly !
To get this "rent" as a technician you need to be employed... Well I won't disert long here for I guess I know how the system works (and for having received many times this "rent" - called allocations spectacles)

 

[k brown]

I read carefully and that's why I added "except for Earthworks" because I've read what you said about their capsules in post #127

Will read

Really ? Other sdc omni capsules can be bought as part (sE8 / WA84 / 3U) but if you say so... then Rode needs maybe a try !

I believe most or all of those capsules are rebranded Chinese parts; Rode designs and makes their own.

They are, however rather bright (similar to the KM 183), so best used in the diffuse field.

Here is legendary Classical engineer Tony Faulkner on the Rodes (and it's the capsules that are special; the Rode mics' circuits are not out of the ordinary, though very low noise):

 

[ricardo]

Having full DSP on board means calibration is actually easy and can be automated.

Would you like to tell us which maker actually calibrates their tetrahedral soundfields? I know of only one maker (& 2 people who can do this properly). And yes we do use evil digits.

Re-visiting the problem this Millenium after much time in the bush, I found computing power beyond my wildest 1980 dreams. Stuff that I dreamt of then is now 'easy'. But very few (ie only 1 other) people know how to do this.

And non est tantum facile for 'matching' tetrahedral soundfield capsules, with or without EVIL digits.

Yes. My problem, LF is not great, even with the original electronics and in the lower midrange and down the magic disappears.

Which of the recordings in ambisonia.com do you have a problem with at LF?

 

[ricardo]

Well, ORTF and all near-coincident pairs are largely mono below frequencies whose 1/2 wavelengths are larger than the distance between the mics. Above that frequency the image is formed by both Interchannel Time Difference (ITD) and Interchannel Level Difference (ILD). Below it, there is only ILD, so the separation is quite small.
.... loadsa other stuff

This isn't the main reason XY with cardioids (and to a lesser extent ORTF) sound monoish. I won't go into ITD & ILD and why stereo may or may not work.

And Blumlein Fig 8s @ 90 certainly don't sound monoish.

Actually one of ORTF's problems and even more for XY with cardioids is that it always sounds like mono.

Well it depends how wide you like your stereo... Natural ? Really spatial ? As I already said (many times) the sextet we I recorded last time with a Schoeps pair set in ORTF is fully detailled and I can re-position the instrument where they exactly were (can say so because I was there). I can post (on demand) an excerpt.

Yes please. I've sent you a message with my email. I'm happy with EVIL mp3 @ 270kB/s

---

But to get away from Willy Wanking ... anyone know of reasonably priced Hyper or Super Cardioids ?

The AKG SDC Fig 8 was a nice surprise for me.

 

[ricardo]

- if DPA & Earthworks (to name those) use cheap electret capsules* then what makes their "magnificent" sound ? (btw I didn't know 4006 had an OPT...)
- I'm pretty sure some of you have already built a clone of these mics : reviewsome feedback ?

We've already dealt with da Earthworks. But the DPA electret is a variant of the B&K omni electret dating back to circa 1980.

This was one of only 2 capsules I envied in my 'mike design as a day job' days.

If you know someone with a stash of Panasonic WM61 capsules before Earthworks bought the lot, you can build something equally magnificent sounding with the RCA version of my SimpleP48 Or your 'Primo omni electret with FET' of choice, or better still PUI 5024, might be even more magnificent

It's slightly more difficult to emulate a DPA omni though I think my cardioid is better than theirs.

 

[thor.zmt]

Would you like to tell us which maker actually calibrates their tetrahedral soundfields?

I don't particular care who does what.

I did include the calibration based on the published math. In the end any form of Calibration is simply "fitting" the results to expectations and adjusting for any difference.

As said, after the initial design study, which we got paid for, the customer went and did something else.

I know of only one maker (& 2 people who can do this properly). And yes we do use evil digits.

Digits are not evil.

In 2024 recording is digital. Recording in 176.4/24 is trivial.

In a digital chain I tend to take the position that ideally the microphone outputs a digital signal, using one of the better AD IC's (e.g. Burr Brown/TI ESS or if we must AKM).

If someone wants to mix and master analogue OOTB, that is another story. In the end we still re-record to a digital track.

The chain stays digital all the way to the voice coil of the speaker drivers, including of crossover, time domain correction, EQ, Dynamics if desired and even a true physiological compensated volume control, using didital domain Class D amplifiers at > 1MHz switching (currently my designs used 1.411/1.536MHz), with an extra DAC, error extraction and feed forward error correction using an analogue Amp of a few 100mW for extreme high end designs. Using way more smallish speaker drivers and multiple Amps turn allowsbsound field control and credible wall-to-wall stereo imaging from a compact single box.

The benefits of the extremely tight integration between Transducers, ADC/DAC and DSP should be obvious, compared to traditional set-ups. It becomes almost trivial to make a chain that can transmit a square wave despite using 4th order Linkwitz Riley crossovers and multiway microphones and speakers.

The possibilities are endless.

I guess "Oldthinkers Unbellyfeel Ingsoc".

Re-visiting the problem this Millenium after much time in the bush, I found computing power beyond my wildest 1980 dreams.

Playing with stuff in the teens (2010's) I found i could get a tiny single chip 16-Core Transputer (who remembers those?) with 2,000 MIPS and hardware level response timing for a few bux.

Stuff that I dreamt of then is now 'easy'. But very few (ie only 1 other) people know how to do this.

The publications are extensive. I see nothing there that is past understanding. The whole math is pretty simple. I reviewed it primarily for the variable pattern.

I can think of a lot of "angles" with a soundfield type mic that are highly suitale to "Livestream", "YouTube" etc, including noise isolation all the way to 3D VR audio which is actually a standard based on ambisionics.

Anyway, it never went past an initial study.

Which of the recordings in ambisonia.com do you have a problem with at LF?

My own recordings using a Calrec Sound field mic, compared to other methods.

Thor

 

[k brown]

This isn't the main reason XY with cardioids (and to a lesser extent ORTF) sound monoish. I won't go into ITD & ILD and why stereo may or may not work.

And Blumlein Fig 8s @ 90 certainly don't sound monoish.



Yes please. I've sent you a message with my email. I'm happy with EVIL mp3 @ 270kB/s

---

But to get away from Willy Wanking ... anyone know of reasonably priced Hyper or Super Cardioids ?

The AKG SDC Fig 8 was a nice surprise for me.

The Oktava MK-012 hyper is their best capsule; very flat response, even off-axis. It's pattern is a bit odd, though; rather closer to cardioid, but not supercardioid either . . .