I'm Out... (changed)

[Recording Engineer]

I’d say over the years since the start of 24-hour propaganda “news”-machines, I’ve seen the right move to use the word liberal as a very derogatory term for the left. I’d imagine the left has one for the right, but not up on what that may be, as those seems to change with movements and not as mainstream.

 

[ruffrecords]

I’d say over the years since the start of 24-hour propaganda “news”-machines, I’ve seen the right move to use the word liberal as a very derogatory term for the left. I’d imagine the left has one for the right, but not up on what that may be, as those seems to change with movements and not as mainstream.

Interesting. Here in the UK the politicians tend not to use the terms left or right but the media does it all the time. 70 years ago left was clearly associated with the Labour Party and right with the Conservatives but since the introduction of the National Health Scheme, government funded pensions and social services plus the general increase in the standard of living, there is less and less to choose between them and they all claim to be just slightly left or right of centre.

Cheers

Ian

 

[living sounds]

Interesting. Here in the UK the politicians tend not to use the terms left or right but the media does it all the time. 70 years ago left was clearly associated with the Labour Party and right with the Conservatives but since the introduction of the National Health Scheme, government funded pensions and social services plus the general increase in the standard of living, there is less and less to choose between them and they all claim to be just slightly left or right of centre.

In the 80s there was a very clear distinction between neoliberal Thatcherism and the economic policies of Labor. With Blair that all changed.

Under Blair left and right favoured different flavours of neoliberalism (just as Deomcrats in the US at the time labor misbranded its course as a 'third way').

Today the right in the UK (as in the US) has switched to a populist nationalism and abandoned many of its former neoliberal pillars. Now it is tariffs instead of free trade again.

Globally the left has to find its footing and agressively promote and then impliment policis to increase economic equality. It's ironic that these days millionaires and billionaires get away with class warfare, but the poor don't.

 

[living sounds]

I'm not familiar with the UK  labeling  / meanings,  or most other countries for that matter.

In the US there is also a distinction when it comes to government vs personal social matters.

Left / Liberal tend to favor big government,  high taxes,, and lots of government services.  But they also favor minimal government intrusion into personal lives, and social matters,  the government shouldn't enforce morality

Right / Conservative are the opposite.  Small government,  low taxes,  minimal government and services.  But they are typically for government intrusion into personal matters,  turning morality into criminal matters.

Both sides are logically inconsistent.  Liberals are ok with big government but not big corporations.  Conservatives are ok with big corporations but not big government.

So you also end up with hybrid types that are a  blend of both.  People who are fiscal conservatives but social liberals,  small government and also minimal intrusion into personal matters, basically a live and let live philosophy.

It gets rather consistent if you take people's personalities into account.
Liberals are compassionate, this really trumps every other aspect (see above cited study), so they want people to be well provided for (which means taxing the rich to provide government services) and minimize personal pain (which means allowing people to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others).

And conservatives... I won't pretend to actually understand conservatives.  ;D

 

[ruffrecords]

It gets rather consistent if you take people's personalities into account.
Liberals are compassionate, this really trumps every other aspect (see above cited study), so they want people to be well provided for (which means taxing the rich to provide government services) and minimize personal pain (which means allowing people to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others).

I don't think so. You suggest that only liberals are compassionate which is self evidently not true.

Cheers

Ian

 

[iturnknobs]

Chill the f#%k out... How? I think that "chilling out" is how we got here.

"(G)et rid of the ballots and you'll have a very ... there won't be a transfer, frankly. There'll be a continuation," he added, saying "the ballots are out of control."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/09/23/politics/trump-election-day-peaceful-transition/index.html

 

[living sounds]

You suggest that only liberals are compassionate which is self evidently not true.

And that's why I never suggested that. But they are evidently more so than every other group (see the study boji cited above).

 

[ruffrecords]

And that's why I never suggested that. But they are evidently more so than every other group (see the study boji cited above).

When you say 'more so' do you mean a greater proportion of liberals are compassionate compared with other groups or do you mean all liberals have a greater level of compassion than other groups?

Cheers

Ian

 

[living sounds]

When you say 'more so' do you mean a greater proportion of liberals are compassionate compared with other groups or do you mean all liberals have a greater level of compassion than other groups?

Cheers

Ian

Neither. Compassion is higher for liberals as a group.

 

[hodad]

Chill the f#%k out... How? I think that "chilling out" is how we got here.

There's certainly something to that.  I tend to marvel at how some people can stare fascism in the face & remain "cautiously optimistic" that it'll all work out in the end.  Trump has declared his intentions to make a mess of this election--to subvert American democracy.  It's right out there in the open--no conspiracy theories or conjecture necessary.  In words and actions.  And if people continue to support Trump, what conclusion is there to be drawn but that they're anti-democratic and pro-authoritarian? 

 

[Recording Engineer]

I think it’s more about party over politics or even country, at all cost.

 

[ruffrecords]

Neither. Compassion is higher for liberals as a group.

What does that mean? Is height a property of compassion?

Cheers

Ian

 

[bluebird]

Chill the f#%k out... How? I think that "chilling out" is how we got here.

I was trying to address the Brewery in general and how we treat each other, not anyone's political activism out in the world. I do think ideas presented here can make people think so its important. But it could be done with a little more grace. That's all.

Perhaps the title of the post is a little offesive. I'll change it.

 

[iomegaman]

There's certainly something to that.  I tend to marvel at how some people can stare fascism in the face & remain "cautiously optimistic" that it'll all work out in the end.  Trump has declared his intentions to make a mess of this election--to subvert American democracy.  It's right out there in the open--no conspiracy theories or conjecture necessary.  In words and actions.  And if people continue to support Trump, what conclusion is there to be drawn but that they're anti-democratic and pro-authoritarian?

I agree that Trumps words make it SOUND like he will subvert democracy, however this is simply a bully tactic and in real life these things don't go as proclaimed...the intention of suggesting that there will not be a peaceful transfer of power unless he is re-elected is complete and utter nonsense...if he loses the election there will be a transition just as there was when the lower house went blue...there is a very real possibility that the entire election swings blue, pretty much standard swing in the USA...

I'm not suggesting there is nothing to see here, simply that it takes a lot more than bully words to destroy democracy...Trump wants you to doubt the democratic process, don't fall for that its nonsense.

The democratic process is how we got Trump, it is also how we will not get Trump.

 

[crazydoc]

...the intention of suggesting that there will not be a peaceful transfer of power unless he is re-elected is complete and utter nonsense...

I'm not so worried about him as I am about the toadies and riffraff he has bamboozled into glorifying him. He has gamed their inflated self esteem and self-righteousness - there will be some violence.

 

[john12ax7]

Neither. Compassion is higher for liberals as a group.

I don't know whether this is true or not.  Liberals tend to want compassion enacted on a government level,  while conservatives tend to favor it on a more local level.  You are assuming one course is necessarily superior.

Social spending in the US per capita is actually fairly high already, with often poor results. This suggests more spending is not necessarily the solution.

 

[boji]

Compassion is higher for liberals as a group

My interpretation of Haidt's survey was that we should avoid coming to this conclusion because moral frameworks vary by type.

Harm and fairness are not the only metrics that can be used for acting compassionately, and to 12ax's point, harm and fairness can come in different packages.

 

[Recording Engineer]

I'm not so worried about him as I am about the toadies and riffraff he has bamboozled into glorifying him. He has gamed their inflated self esteem and self-righteousness - there will be some violence.

Absolutely my concern too. What will it take for all long-standing conservative leaders and influencers to call out Trump by name and openly admit he’s absolutely bat-shit crazy and encouraging all the chaos and violence? I’m scared for what it will take to lay it out like that and that we might find out soon enough. I sure hope not! But it’s all ok, the economy was so great all thanks to him and look, he should win a Nobel Peace Prize. Plus, all you have to do is vote for all this to go away.

 

[iomegaman]

I'm not so worried about him as I am about the toadies and riffraff he has bamboozled into glorifying him. He has gamed their inflated self esteem and self-righteousness - there will be some violence.

I just use a "social media eq limiter" on that particular noise group...they make a TON of noise, so much so that the DOJ should really classify some of them as domestic terrorist (which will NEVER happen under Barr)...the FBI already takes them quite serious and believe it or not is busy dismantling the most active ones.

The ones that are part of the Fox noise frenzy will all pretty much go away after the election, until then they will remain on "mute" in my social soundscapes as ALL things Fox do.

 

[living sounds]

What does that mean? Is height a property of compassion?

Check out that above quoted study, the metrics are harm and fairness.