Kavana(ugh)

[boji]

The transient response of modern culture is not critically damped so likely to overshoot and ring, before reaching equilibrium.

Heh. Way to bring it home.  8)

Edit: So, do we want a zobel network strapped on the media, or do we simply trade them out for a better transformative experience?

(sorry) ;D

 

[living sounds]

Indeed men and women are different (contrary to some modern conceits).

Averaged, yes. Individually, not necessarily. Beware generalizations. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Heh. Way to bring it home.  8)

Edit: So, do we want a zobel network strapped on the media, or do we simply trade them out for a better transformative experience?

(sorry) ;D

It is not as obvious as how we would stabilize physical systems but the remedies are probably the same, including reducing the boost from social media amplification. 

Or we learn to live with the rapid swings in our culture. No obvious answer but it helps to understand the root cause (or not).

JR 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well, if I were sexually assaulted, I would not want JR on my jury.  He voted for and continues to support a president who is an admitted serial sexual assaulter--but that's okay for JR. 

I hope you never need a jury trial. I believe I would treat you as fairly as I have treated others in the past.

For the Nth time. President Trump was not my first choice, or second, while still the far lesser evil than the other options (IMO).

Since you bring up the subject, he has done something I have never seen a politician do before. He is keeping campaign promises. Maybe because he is a businessman, not a politician, but he is slowly learning about politics after two years in the heart of the swamp.

His comments on Kavanaugh favor Kavanaugh over Blasey Ford because Kavanaugh just doesn't seem like that kind of guy.  And I venture to say he would support Kavanaugh as readily as he has supported Trump pretty much regardless of evidence.  And so far the evidence suggests Kavanaugh was the kind of guy who very much could have committed sexual assault. 

I still hate it when people put words in my mouth and speculate about what I think. I have not exactly been mute on this topic. I want to hear what both say (under oath) about the accusation.  Kavanaugh's name was on a list of possible future SCOTUS jurists published over two years ago. This last second accusation looks, walks, and quacks like partisan (resist) gamesmanship, but I repeat let the process play out and hear what they both have to say. 

I don't see this as a lack of bias.  I see it as an unwillingness to condemn those who support his political viewpoints, regardless of their personal repugnance. 

I try not to condemn people because of how they vote. An observation (not mine) about the difference between conservatives and liberals, conservatives think liberals are ignorant, liberals think conservatives are evil. After you declare an entire group evil, it becomes OK to attack their character, and worse.

Doesn't matter though. 

(I'm out.)

Thank you... 
======
TMI warning (you may want to stop reading now).

I had planned to let this sleeping dog lie, but this discussion has dredged up an old personal anecdote from the 70s that vaguely seems on topic. I was actually the victim of a sexual assault, and I am uncomfortable about the severity of using that language but it seems appropriately descriptive. I picked up a hitchhiker one cold winter night, and before I got my car back up to speed, his hands were on my leg trying to make sexual advances. I stopped my car immediately and kicked him out (no I didn't literally kick him). Since I was in my mid 20's and just a couple years out of the military, I was never remotely concerned about my personal safety. This idiot just made an unwelcome pass at the wrong guy in the wrong place.  If I was knowingly in a gay bar and this happened, no harm no foul, but definitely the inappropriate way to return my kindness for picking up a hitchhiker on a cold winter night. 

No, I didn't file a police report, I would be embarrassed to admit that I ever felt at personal risk. I don't plan to include this event in my biography or ever think about it again. It was not repressed, more like dismissed as of no consequence. I may have discussed this at the time with a co-worker but don't recall...(this occurred over 40 years ago). 

I guess now I will get labelled a homophobe or gay basher, for rejecting his unwanted advances (flame suit on). 

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I actually had a guy friend do the same thing to me (grab my thigh and started rubbing)  one night after a party. I was pretty uncomfortable and just said wtf! Never said anything about it until now....

Indeed... a typical male response is "stop that" then not make a big deal about it, as long as it stops.  This is not the kind of thing we typically brag about on the WWW.

Sorry about your friend with the abusive father. The worst sexual abuse is routinely about a dominant power relationship. The century old Hollywood casting couch is all about movie executives having power to control a young starlet's career.  Rape often includes the threat of physical (power) violence/harm. Church clergy were in positions of authority over young boys (girls). Coaches and now famously sports doctors are in positions of authority to take advantage of young athletes. Bill Clinton wouldn't have gotten so much tail if he wasn't governor/president.

In ancient history is was fairly common for wealthy/powerful people to have sex with young boys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece  It seems almost always the dominant male taking advantage of weaker women/children. While it has taken thousands of years for modern culture to fully reject all such practices, and characterize them as anti-social. I will repeat that men and women are different, men are generally the sexual aggressor (some powerful women with high T probably abuse too).  So men have a genetic bias toward sexual aggressions, which probably helped their genome propagate more successfully during our caveman days (the more women a man could get pregnant, the better chance his genome had to survive to be passed along). Now we are socialized to suppress such instincts. Intoxicants that suppress inhibitions can lead to less socialized behavior.

I feel we need a more thoughtful response to the #metoo movement. We need to take accusations seriously but also provide due process and not overshoot, destroying innocent people's lives and careers. I am not talking about Kavanaugh specifically (I warned about this possibility of #metoo overreaction before this accusation became public). We don't know if he is innocent or guilty, but we will get more information soon from the horse's mouths. 

Bill Cosby and soon Harvey Weinstein will get their perp walks and public flogging as they deserve. (While Weinstein may not be convicted yet, the preponderance of evidence against him seems compelling, not unlike Bill Cosby's).  #metoo should not be weaponized for use as just another political tool to be used against the (evil?) opposition. If Kavanaugh is guilty of a crime, does anybody expect him to escape justice, with this much public scrutiny?  Even after seated on SCOTUS he can still be investigated and impeached if new evidence leads to that conclusion.

JR

PS: I also worry about kids growing up exposed to internet porn. That is not remotely reality, like so much else on the internet. 

 

[Matador]

This last second accusation looks, walks, and quacks like partisan (resist) gamesmanship

I hope so!  It means the Dems are finally realizing that it really isn't a game when only one side plays by the rules.  It's hard for one to claim the moral high ground and proclaim theft wrong when one was just bragging about getting away with stealing.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I was actually "sexually assaulted" you could say by a girl believe it or not. Turns out I didn't mind when it came down to it (maybe I look at it differently now) but, to be woken up from a pretty heavy night of drinking by what was going on was crazy.  I had just been introduced that night as she was a friend of a friend and never saw her after....I have heard the stories before and never really put any thought into there being any truth to them but, yes. It can happen. 

another old saying  "earthmen are easy".  ;D

I think that's where it gets hairy. Being found guilty of a crime and being guilty of one in people's judgements (and rightfully so sometimes) makes it frustrating.

In fact that is why our constitution (and legal system) provides several clauses to secure individual protections from mob rule (court of public opinion). Our government is not a simple democracy to protect against the "tyranny of the masses". 

Tyranny of the majority (or tyranny of the masses) refers to an inherent weakness of majority rule in which the majority of an electorate can and does place its own interests above, and at the expense of, those in the minority.

It's everywhere though and I personally don't like the one sided approach to these cases when it's clearly a universal issue and not just important when you're a particular voter....

@Matador  the swamp dwellers from both sides have dirty hands, no high ground for either side... claims of moral superiority from any politician is a joke...

A judge with a track record of past decisions should somewhat inform his future decisions.  If we kicked everyone with an accusation on their past record out of government we could save money on the government's electric bill because there would be no reason to turn on the lights. (note: I am not discounting the many accusations just saying without proof they are not enough to remove people from office, and maybe not even then depending on the complaint.)

BTW women do not automatically deserve some unimpeachable veracity because they have different sex drives than men.  As I have been reminded just today they all need to be evaluated as individuals.

JR

PS: Too many propaganda techniques in use to list but for any interested see link  for full list
https://www.uvm.edu/~jleonard/AGRI183/propoaganda.html
in particular #1, 2,3,5, 8, 9, 10, 14, 18, 19, 20, 21, 

and one I didn't see on the list, where they throw several vague accusations out into the news, none of which rise to significance by themselves (lacking evidence or credibility), but appear from their number to demonstrate a pattern of behavior or guilt, when none exists.  Of course maybe I'm just confused.  : 

[edit... and the published list of lie detector test questions is poisoning the well of public perception (along the lines of "do you still beat your wife" ). No doubt another calculated attack on his character.  This is getting dirty. [/edit]

 

[desol]

another old saying  "earthmen are easy".

I was no joke, nearly sexually assaulted by 6 or 7 girls when I was about 19. Thing is, it actually kinda almost got outta hand, Beatles style. I was a having a party at my house and  bunch of people were there. There was quite a lot of drinking going on...loud music, etc. I had long hair back then and was kind of the guitar god of the small city. Somehow, I believe due to a few young women asking me racy type music questions intermingled with the loud music and sexual overtones, they managed to attract the attention of a few other females. The group of them were probably 2 or 3 years younger than me. They all started giggling and grabbing, laughing and screaming...and managed to back me into a corner. I felt my hair getting pulled...my shirt getting yanked at, hands all over....and then suddenly I sensed that these women were more or less on the brink of losing control.  ??? Like, in a kind of scary way.

I managed to writhe away from them, but I've never experienced anything like that since that time.

Another time(i just remembered)...was worse. I was with a girl out at the lake in a car...alone on a back road. This was a bit scary. Her name was Megan. She literally grabbed my hair and was attempting to force me to have sex with her...lol.

Women can be brutal, but I mean...we're still way stronger than them. So, whatever...

Man those were the days!!!

Oh yeah...Kavana(ugh). I saw Jim Carrey's new painting the other day.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I like your anecdote better than mine.... isn't that why young men pick up the guitar? Just kidding, never cool.

Animals in groups (mobs, packs) are better hunters, but worse thinkers.

JR

 

[dmp]

The hearing is going on now. I hope everyone is paying attention in order to get an informed view.  A big part of the division of the country that led to the state we are in is the highly partisan propaganda, spinning stories. Expect snippets to be up on facebook & partisan news sites / trying to change the story.
With the actual facts (like watching the hearing) you can hopefully see through the chum.

About this, President Trump has called Democrats "obstructionists" "con artists" and “some very evil” Democrats. He described the claims as “false accusations,” and  “a very dangerous period in our country” in which men are presumed guilty.

How's that for worsening the national discourse? This is our President.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The hearing is going on now. I hope everyone is paying attention in order to get an informed view.  A big part of the division of the country that led to the state we are in is the highly partisan propaganda, spinning stories. Expect snippets to be up on facebook & partisan news sites / trying to change the story.
With the actual facts (like watching the hearing) you can hopefully see through the chum.

Thanks for the heads up. I expected this to be on my DVR but for some reason the (liberal leaning CNBC) business news channel decided not to televise it. I found it on fox business channel (go figure).  During the lunch break fox is spinning hard to discredit such accusations (again go figure  : ).

About this, President Trump has called Democrats "obstructionists" "con artists" and “some very evil” Democrats. He described the claims as “false accusations,” and  “a very dangerous period in our country” in which men are presumed guilty.

Trump is a well known counter-puncher (who routinely punches down), he was unusually quiet about this for several days but I guess he finally got fed up, and reverted to normal (for him). Calling them "evil" may be stealing their own dog whistle used to justify extreme tactics (I hope it doesn't confuse the dogs  : ).

How's that for worsening the national discourse? This is our President.

Would you like a list of the pejorative names Judge Kavanaugh has been called this last week (just look at the title of this thread)? Several legislators have struck pretty low personal blows with charges of presumptive guilt, but one senator from Hawaii is taking it further and accusing all men (Sen Hirono, I had to google her name but her sound bites are getting repeated as she is surfing the #metoo wave trying to become a household name).

The good news is that this hearing will be over soon, but I doubt this will end amicably or quietly. This is the new normal for American politics, while we have had periods of nasty mud slinging (and even violence between legislators on capitol hill) before. The immediate dissemination of memes on social media makes it different this time. So the same as, but different.

JR

PS: Political spin is about painting a picture with words...I expect some well crafted questions will be asked of Judge Kavanaugh ( not unlike how the published lie detector questions painted a picture by themselves).  I miss the days before they allowed TV cameras into congressional hearings. Now everything is about getting the gotcha sound bite(s), that both sides are looking for to use in mid term campaign ads.. 

 

[desol]

I like your anecdote better than mine.... isn't that why young men pick up the guitar? Just kidding, never cool.

Animals in groups (mobs, packs) are better hunters, but worse thinkers.

JR

Well, it didn't really bother me. I think I ended up having one of those girls that night.    But I remember thinking afterwards, I now understand how the Beatles felt? Odd. Kind of an strange mix....ego flattery while feeling slight fear at the same time... They were pulling my hair and I heard my shirt rip...amongst the laughter and chaos.

They can get outta hand in groups like that.

 

[living sounds]

Facts:

1. The FBI could have investigated this for over a week now and given enough manpower (no pun intended) probably concluded the investigation.

2. Republicans and Kavanaugh reject an FBI inquiry - the normal procedure, it happened in Clarence Thomas' case

3. Professor Ford would have welcomed an FBI inquiry.


Objectively, there really is only one conclusion to draw from this.

 

[DaveP]

Having listened to the testimony today, I don't have to rely on speculation, only my experience in judging character.

First off:  Dr Ford looks like a woman with serious issues, she seems like a very fragile woman to me.  She admitted in her testimony that even without the assault she was prone to anxiety.  I don't really understand how someone who had such a fear of flying has flown sooo much.  I also did not understand why she did not mention judge K to the various therapists she attended.

My wife was turned down for a secretarial job for not being up for an affair with the boss.  I kept a check on this creep up to the day he died and told anyone who would listen.

Assuming judge K was guilty, who from that era hasn't done things that would appall today's generation?  I know I have!
The thing is, we grow up, we find our way, we settle down and raise families and except for actors and pop stars, most of us leave the sins of our youth behind.

This unedifying charade is the latest manifestation of the "culture war" taking place in the US today, it looks like McCarthyism all over again from this side of the pond.  In the end, you have to balance what judge K has made of his life against the mistakes he made when he started his journey.  Maybe only Jesus (that's a only maybe) would satisfy twitter world as a nominee, but His words are relevant today "Those who are without sin, cast the first stone".

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

DaveP, hat's off for your good impression of motivated reasoning.

 

[DaveP]

DaveP, hat's off for your good impression of motivated reasoning.

I'm guessing this means something derogatory but it's lost on me, perhaps you can be blunter? I am not easily offended.

DaveP

 

[Matador]

Jesus Dave.

 

[DaveP]

Sorry but I think your judicial system is completely flawed, you should have stuck with the system the British gave you instead of having a partisan supreme court, then this chaos could have been avoided.

Even Zimbabwe has an independent judiciary.  The law should always be above politics and free from interference.  I don't know of any other country in the world that has such a crazy system.

DaveP

 

[dmp]

It was striking how credible Ford was and in contrast how angry and petulant Kavanaugh was.

Assuming judge K was guilty, who from that era hasn't done things that would appall today's generation?  I know I have!
The thing is, we grow up, we find our way, we settle down and raise families and except for actors and pop stars, most of us leave the sins of our youth behind.

I started to write a response to this but decided to delete it instead. I hope you didn't mean what this sounds like.

 

[fazer]

Ford was creditable but lots of anxiety and troubled , ptsd from some event but not from Kavanaugh.  Sorry I don’t agree after seeing what very much looks like a Hail Mary pass by the dems.  That pass hasn’t landed yet.  We’ll see.

I was moved by judge k.  You see anger and so do I.  Shame on DIFI withholding info go what 45 days. 

  I’m still good with Kavanaugh.  I fully agree with Linsey Graham’s, accessment of that procedings.  It’s America the Great Divide. 

We all see the movie we want to see.  Netflix should broadcast fake news to the Democrat channel and different news for the Republican channel. 

Who wants to run for office after this spectacle.