Large Format Console Conundrum

[TomCee]

Damn Brian!!! Nice work!!! Especially at that age! (Ignorance is bliss!!! )

TomC

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Buy an API 1608 or something. Getting any used console is going to be a maintenance nightmare.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. New API is not the equal of vintage API.

IME the new API stuff, 1608 included does not sound good and from friends who own they are a significant service liability. The monitor section alone is a signifnat choke on performance, and I've heard many.

I have a good friend who literally uses an API box to hold his A room door open, it has had so many issues he's given up trying to fix it.

Last example, one thing that I get quite often to master is two versions of a mix. One ITB and one summed on a console, the typical examples are SSL AWS900 or API1608. Never once has the 1608 sounded better, it's mostly just a vague, cheap sounding version of the ITB mix.

Old API all day, but obviously they are $$$

 

[Ricardus]

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. New API is not the equal of vintage API.

Great. Quantify that for us please.

 

[FIX]

The FIX consoles are not a maintenance nightmare, as all of my years, I have learned a few things. When I owned API and Tonelux, the policy was "we don't want them back to repair" so I designed them to be repaired easily, in the field. With the 3 tone amps and transformers you pick in the busses, they will provide 3 flavors, so committing to a "sound" isn't needed either.

 

[inkster]

Decades ago, I went down that rabbit hole:

http://brianroth.com/projects/m77/m77.html
It about killed me....lol!

For many things like the custom Bourns pots, we ordered enough to build two desks plus a few extras, especially to hit minimum order requirements. IIRC, we also had 2x of the front panels and other metal parts made as well.

I had a falling out with my then-employer and moved on. They sold off the extra parts to a guy in Kansas City, who then built up Serial Number Two. I did a lot of telephone assistance and sent pages of handwritten notes to him.

He used SN #2 for many years, then sold it a few years ago to a new build studio in Omaha for their tracking room. I worked for several weeks in Omaha going through it with a fine-toothed comb.

http://brianroth.com/pix/mb77-june2014/
Ultimately, the Omaha folks opted for an API because it "looked better" on their equipment list. They sold it to a guy in Denver who still uses SN #2 to this day AFAIK.

TMI......

Bri

I was one of the first people to record on the KC installed console...I got the impreesion from the studio owner that although he loved the sound and function he wished he had just bought a console ready to go as it took ages to complete, it was partially completed when we recorded there. It was impressive!

 

[audiosway]

Here’s a question with some potential answers.

Why do you want a large format console these days?

1) Is it to have something sexy to use as a selling point for your studio and projects that actually doesn’t get used as much as you’d like cuz it’s all ITB?

2) you’ve got loads of money you’re building an all analogue studio and you just know you’ll have clients tearing your doors off for the chance to record with you/in there

3) you’re young and adventurous and prepared to take a punt (see never built a second one)

4) you’ve always wanted one you’ve made a fair bit of folding and are looking to write off you’re huge tax bill



Owning a large format console is like owning a couple of vintage cars - like a C-type jag and a delahaye 175s. Always seems like a good idea BEFORE you get into it lol.

Wow. A lot of responses. Thanks everyone.

I started off with 2 inch tape if that tells you anything. Not old but not young either. I'm a full time engineer and do not like ITB. I want a console for several reasons.
1. Workflow
2. Routing
3. Mixing

I can mix in the box but I'm just not a fan of it. That said, I wouldn't go back to tape. The editing and sync capabilities were horrible. I like Pro Tools and have used it for about 20 years now. But, I prefer it to act as a glorified tape machine to coin a term.

And yes I'm very familiar with maintenance and do it routinely as well as building modules, etc. All part of owning and running a full time studio.

I started in a studio with a Neotek Elite and a 2 inch MCI. We then upgraded to an SSL 4056. Loved that board.

For the poster that commented about me wanting groupDIY to do it for me...Well that really wasn't the point of this. The point of this was to confirm what I already thought. I was thinking I needed to just buy a well maintained SSL 4056 and build out a box of 8 - 1290 preamps for some of my tracking. That's what the group confirmed would be the best idea.

Maybe this is a good lesson for some here that might see this in the future. If you are thinking of undertaking a "studio altering" change it's always best to ask ones that you know have been down that path. I know that some on here have built large format consoles like RuffRecords. I've also asked in a facebook group I'm in with previous Neve employees.

This has nothing to do with stealing IP or anything of that nature. When I build my 1290 preamps they will NOT have an N logo on them. They will have my studio logo. I just know what works best for my work flow and my studio as well as for me to get the best out of the artists I work with.

That's my 2 cents. Again, thanks to all of you on here with more experience than me in this endeavor of building equipment willing to give me some sound advice. That's why I love this forum so much.

 

[audiosway]

Building your own console is like making sausage. Like people here said, few survive it, and that's not a joke. It is emotionally and mentally taxing. Older consoles are also a close second, as in those days, studios had maintenance staff, who were really good at fixing everything. Many of the old console will have switch and pot issues, and many are custom values, and are made of unobtanium. Many of the new consoles are almost unrepairable for most people.

I don't want to ad here, but you should check out a FIX console, it has a lot of great features and it can sound like any console you prefer, up to 3 different ones at once. No audio runs through switches, all through relays, Pots and switches are paralleled redundant wafers and available on Mouser or Digikey, the inputs and outputs are all diode protected, and the bus structure has the opamps and transformers of your 3 favorite consoles, so you can switch tones between A, B or C stereo bus as you mix. I designed it that way because I don't want to repair them, and I don't want you to either...

Plus you can start with 8 channels and add to it whenever. Every frame layout is to your liking (to match the profile of something you already have, etc.) and you get extra side pieces so you can grow it in the future with little effort. The studio in Australia has an 8 channel one and he said that it's his best friend...

We have done traditional looking consoles that lay low, and raked ones that look like the old Neves, Spheres, EMIs etc. Plus, I make stereo consoles and Immersive consoles that pan to 9.2+6...

Paul! Great to hear from you. You are the dirty dog that sent me down this path. I was just thinking I would go for an old SSL 4k and I saw a recent video of you talking with the guys down at Sunset sound. That's what got me thinking about building one instead. Great video btw talking about the old console for Sunset was built in around 80 I believe.

I'm still in the spec and browsing stage right now. We are building out the new studio at the moment. I'm in the North Bay of San Francisco. I'll have enough room in the control room to fit a 48-56 channel console. I'll reach out to as I get closer to purchase to see what you have to offer. My main needs are at least 48 channels with a surgical eq, compression on each channel. At least 10 busses (preferably more) and automation. I could care less about the flying fader stuff. VCA automation plenty good enough for me.

That's why I'm mainly looking at an SSL 4k. I like that I can push that board to get some grit. Huge fan of the E black knob eqs.

 

[Brian Roth]

I was one of the first people to record on the KC installed console...I got the impreesion from the studio owner that although he loved the sound and function he wished he had just bought a console ready to go as it took ages to complete, it was partially completed when we recorded there. It was impressive!

Wow....a Small World! I don't recall the name of the guy who bought the parts and assembled them....been too many years. I recall he eventually installed his/my <g> desk in a mobile truck and used it for years. IIRC, he ended up in Tulsa and finally retired. So, SN #2 began life with parts from OKC, went to KC, then Tulsa, next to Omaha, then Denver. I need to look up the phone number for the Denver guy to see if it's still in service!

What are your memories about the sonics and workflow? It was designed in a FAR simpler age.

Bri

 

[Brian Roth]

Decades ago, I went down that rabbit hole:

http://brianroth.com/projects/m77/m77.html
It about killed me....lol!

For many things like the custom Bourns pots, we ordered enough to build two desks plus a few extras, especially to hit minimum order requirements. IIRC, we also had 2x of the front panels and other metal parts made as well.

I had a falling out with my then-employer and moved on. They sold off the extra parts to a guy in Kansas City, who then built up Serial Number Two. I did a lot of telephone assistance and sent pages of handwritten notes to him.

He used SN #2 for many years, then sold it a few years ago to a new build studio in Omaha for their tracking room. I worked for several weeks in Omaha going through it with a fine-toothed comb.

http://brianroth.com/pix/mb77-june2014/
Ultimately, the Omaha folks opted for an API because it "looked better" on their equipment list. They sold it to a guy in Denver who still uses SN #2 to this day AFAIK.

TMI......

Bri

Apparently, It's Still Alive! lol

https://www.catadawnstudios.com/mixing-services
Bri

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Great. Quantify that for us please.

You appear to be taking my words as some kind of personal affront? That's not my intent, at all.

If your goal is to ask for my objective measurement and subjective listening skills then there's no way to answer that without sounding like an ******* and name dropping and gear list dropping, I have been doing this for a minute.

I have heard in person probably 10 different API 1608, talked to many owners, mastered many mixes created on those boards, mastered records tracked on them and mixed elsewhere and have several friends who worked at API during this "decline". I know things that I cannot and would not say in public. Aside from that I've put my ears on many old API rackmount and 500 series pieces from all of the various eras right through to current 500 series stuff.

TLDR if a friend was thinking of buying current API offerings of any kind I would endeavor to steer her/him away form that decision, that's it. You clearly feel differently and that is totally fine by me.

 

[groselicain]

How is the automation on the API1608 and 2488?

...New API is not the equal of vintage API...

Old API all day, but obviously they are $$$

Owner of 2448—not to be confused with the original 2448, but that might be what you were actually asking about so I apologize if I'm muddying the waters—serial number 0001. It's the model they built for the AES show, which then got sold to Vintage King as a showroom piece for the Nashville location. Does it sound like old API? I couldn't tell you. The only functioning old APIs in town are at House of David and House of Blues as far as I recall, and I've never been in those rooms. It was in my price range, had just been gone over, and had the features I wanted with the workflow I needed, so I went with it. With those considerations it was between this and a Genesys, and I had real fears about working on something that had that much digital control going on.

As far as the automation goes, I couldn't be more tickled. It's dead simple, responsive, and idiot-proof.

If I had known it was so easy to get in contact with Paul, I would've given him a call. I talked on the phone with Geoff Daking twice and his console was my dream—just too expensive even at the ground level.

 

[capacitorless]

https://www.westword.com/music/cata...er-uses-analog-gear-to-master-tracks-11308355
EMT 140 in the room upstairs as well.

 

[Brian Roth]

Wow...from that article:

The crown jewel of the Catadawn gear collection is the 24-channel custom mixing console built by legendary electrical engineer Brian Roth at age 24 in the late ’70s — one of two ever made.


I am now a legend! <g>

All I can say is keep the signal path short as possible. And, make SURE the EQ sounded great when switched in.

In my design, there were only two 5534 opamps in the signal chain IF:

1. Mic pre in

and

2. Direct out selected to the multitrack out.

Mic preamp and fader buffer. It was a minimalist signal path. Switching in the variable low cut filterer, one more opamp stage. And/or switching in the EQ....two more 5534s in the path.


Bri

 

[inkster]

Wow....a Small World! I don't recall the name of the guy who bought the parts and assembled them....been too many years. I recall he eventually installed his/my <g> desk in a mobile truck and used it for years. IIRC, he ended up in Tulsa and finally retired. So, SN #2 began life with parts from OKC, went to KC, then Tulsa, next to Omaha, then Denver. I need to look up the phone number for the Denver guy to see if it's still in service!

What are your memories about the sonics and workflow? It was designed in a FAR simpler age.

Bri

I was there as the artist so I was not wearing my tech hat so to speak, I ran across a some tapes from that session and they sound great. I do recall everything we did sounded great from headphone mixes to roughs, unfortunately the performances were not what we had hoped for so it got shelved and we all went on to seperate careers in the biz.

 

[Newmarket]

Here’s a question with some potential answers.

Why do you want a large format console these days?

1) Is it to have something sexy to use as a selling point for your studio and projects that actually doesn’t get used as much as you’d like cuz it’s all ITB?

2) you’ve got loads of money you’re building an all analogue studio and you just know you’ll have clients tearing your doors off for the chance to record with you/in there

3) you’re young and adventurous and prepared to take a punt (see never built a second one)

4) you’ve always wanted one you’ve made a fair bit of folding and are looking to write off you’re huge tax bill



Owning a large format console is like owning a couple of vintage cars - like a C-type jag and a delahaye 175s. Always seems like a good idea BEFORE you get into it lol.

I think that for many it's essentially an ergonomic thing. The control surface aspect. This can of course be in other forms than a traditional analogue desk eg digitally controlled analogue as in Euphonix or control surfaces for ProTools etc.
Watched interview with Bob Clear mountain. All ProTools setup for Surround / Dolby / ATMOS etc. But still "gotta have faders".

 

[audiosway]

I think that for many it's essentially an ergonomic thing. The control surface aspect. This can of course be in other forms than a traditional analogue desk eg digitally controlled analogue as in Euphonix or control surfaces for ProTools etc.
Watched interview with Bob Clear mountain. All ProTools setup for Surround / Dolby / ATMOS etc. But still "gotta have faders".

Same with me. Yes I can mix in the box and it sounds very good. But, I hear better imaging with the analog hardware. It just is. There really isn't any way around that. Also, I'm so much faster working with analog and faders. I can have an eq turned on and set with a compressor on the channel faster than I can pull up the SSL plugin on the pro tools track. It's just not the same.

And I'm sure 20 years from now there will be guys that can't work with faders like they can a mouse. It's all about you and what you are comfortable with.

 

[john12ax7]

I wonder how much API has changed the "recipe" over the years. I've owned a variety of their outboard and have noticed things like reissue 550As sounding different depending on when they were built. My initial impression of the 1608 was positive, but have only had limited time using it. Most of the issues I hear about are opamp related, which is annoying, but also an easy fix. Is there more than that going on these days?

Tracking with Neve and then mixing SSL 4k is a classic combo which seems to fit OP needs. But have you also considered the machine room and electricity requirements? Can get expensive to run and maintain. The atomic power supplies are worth looking into.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Paul Wolff is a member here, he may have an opinion...

JR

 

[audiosway]

Paul Wolff is a member here, he may have an opinion...

JR

He piped in earlier in the thread. Thanks!

I wonder how much API has changed the "recipe" over the years. I've owned a variety of their outboard and have noticed things like reissue 550As sounding different depending on when they were built. My initial impression of the 1608 was positive, but] have only had limited time using it. Most of the issues I hear about are opamp related, which is annoying, but also an easy fix. Is there more than that going on these days?

Tracking with Neve and then mixing SSL 4k is a classic combo which seems to fit OP needs. But have you also considered the machine room and electricity requirements? Can get expensive to run and maintain. The atomic power supplies are worth looking into.

I've definitely considered the power needs. That's why I'll immediately be getting an atomic if it doesn't already have one when I buy. The studio I started in is running an atomic now with that 4056 and loves it.

 

[Brian Roth]

I need to word this carefully so that no one sues me..... In 2016 I was working at a new studio build with an API Legacy desk. It was used and I don't recall what year it was built or where it was originally installed.

One Big Problem was many of the 2510 "potted" opamps (maybe close to ten IIRC) had failed. Those were SIP versions of the famous 2520 API blocks. API would not sell us replacements unless we sent them the dead ones.

We found an aftermarket replacement from Scott Liebers which weren't "potted" like the API version:

https://scottliebers.com/op_amps/op_amps_2510.htm
There were other problems with that desk which I had to sort out, but I'll stop now.


Bri