little by little, some prototype

[maurizionatoli]

The helicopter sounds great - plenty of throbbing bass - but I don't think there's any height information. I think that because we're used to helicopters flying up in the air, we may subconsciously ascribe height info to the sound, but all that I think I actually hear is a transition sideways from right to left.

(I'm listening with over-ear 'Titum' cans, which usually give honest, full frequency audio.)

Incidentally, the piano music - as inserted above by Soliloqueen - sounds transposed left-for-right to me: the top notes are on the left, and the lower notes are on the right, whereas they're the other way around on any piano keyboard. Maybe it was a mistake in mixing, recording, or mic placement. But it sounds "unreal" and unbelievable ..like listening to a mirror image, if that's possible!

Dear MicMan, maybe there's something not so clear: the piano recording is mine, made with "regular" (2 omni and 2 cards) as I use in every record, not with "artificial head" of any sort (as you can see in the photo below). I was meaning that the mics i used for this record are made by me, with the concept of "pure capsule". The capsule i used were suggested by KingKorg and that's why i thank him. Then: i don't know the cans you use, no doubt that they are quite fine but to appreciate the 3d effect of any artificial head they have to be something " over ear" and "flat" your pinnae to your head because if not you would have a double effect of encoding the space (the first by the head used for the recording, the second when you listen). Thus said, there's nothing wrong with the L/R effect in Classical Music. As you can see in the pictures i used the "Decca approach" which is 2 omni in the "tail" position and 2 cards near the lid opened, facing the strings in the position I think there are more natural harmonics and the sound is - to my ears - fuller. If you place mics this way the L/R effect is that of the record. But if the hall is better than the one we were, and you could place mics a little further, the L/R effect diminishes and the focus of the instrument will be better but more far. Thanks a lot for the precious judgement!

 

[maurizionatoli]

 

[MicMan]

"Doctor, Doctor.....I get a pain in my eye each morning when I drink my coffee after stirring-in some sugar!!! What should I do"???

"Try removing the spoon from your coffee cup after you stir-in the sugar!!! That will be 50-bucks"!!!

/

"Doctor, Doctor.." etc.

What I was trying to say, in as few words as possible - but now that's gone out of the window - was that just swapping my cans left-for-right would make the audio OK for me, but that doesn't solve anything (for others) which may be wrong with the recording itself. Maybe it was the mp3 which was wrongly encoded; maybe it was panning the wrong way on a mixer during recording, maybe it was mic placement, or assigning mics to channels. But if this audio is meant for streaming, as I think maurizionatoli intends, then no-one's going to rewire their iPad speakers, or PC speakers, or audio room speakers, or TV speakers, or cinema speakers, just to get the channels correct, are they?

Simply changing round my own cans may solve the problem for me - like not raising my hand above my head - but it doesn't solve any possible problem for anyone else. That's what I was pointing out.

 

[k brown]

"Doctor, Doctor.." etc.

What I was trying to say, in as few words as possible - but now that's gone out of the window - was that just swapping my cans left-for-right would make the audio OK for me, but that doesn't solve anything (for others) which may be wrong with the recording itself. Maybe it was the mp3 which was wrongly encoded; maybe it was panning the wrong way on a mixer during recording, maybe it was mic placement, or assigning mics to channels. But if this audio is meant for streaming, as I think maurizionatoli intends, then no-one's going to rewire their iPad speakers, or PC speakers, or audio room speakers, or TV speakers, or cinema speakers, just to get the channels correct, are they?

Simply changing round my own cans may solve the problem for me - like not raising my hand above my head - but it doesn't solve any possible problem for anyone else. That's what I was pointing out.

There's no right or wrong in regards to the L/R positioning of notes in a Classical piano recording; all matter of taste. Some prefer "player's perspective", as you described, but an audience in a Classical concert gets no clear L/R impression of low/high notes. The combination of lid reflections, floor reflections and nearby wall reflections jumbles it up; depending on the room, low and high can often seem to switch between L and R during a performance.

OP describes and properly deployed the Decca approach to recording Classical piano, which results in just what you hear: low notes to the right and high to the left. Decca almost never placed cards so close to the curve as seen in the photos, though - even for spot mics; that's a pop/jazz position.

It was also not standard practice at Decca to use APE mics as the tail pair. Tony Faulkner has been known to use a pair of M50s (which are APE mics) on piano, but much further back, and straight out from the curve, not at the tail. Much more often he uses ribbons on piano (especially as spots in a concerto).

 

[k brown]

View attachment 127776View attachment 127777View attachment 127778

I like your 'outside the box' mic suspensions, but personally I wouldn't put physical obstructions right on the surface of an APE; may be audible, maybe not; FWIW, I'd avoid it myself.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

"Doctor, Doctor.." etc.

What I was trying to say, in as few words as possible - but now that's gone out of the window - was that just swapping my cans left-for-right would make the audio OK for me, but that doesn't solve anything (for others) which may be wrong with the recording itself. Maybe it was the mp3 which was wrongly encoded; maybe it was panning the wrong way on a mixer during recording, maybe it was mic placement, or assigning mics to channels. But if this audio is meant for streaming, as I think maurizionatoli intends, then no-one's going to rewire their iPad speakers, or PC speakers, or audio room speakers, or TV speakers, or cinema speakers, just to get the channels correct, are they?

Simply changing round my own cans may solve the problem for me - like not raising my hand above my head - but it doesn't solve any possible problem for anyone else. That's what I was pointing out.

>> HEY!!! I was just kidding around with you with my "Doctor, Doctor" comeback because of yours!!! No need to become defensive or anything, OK???

In any case.....I would tend to agree with -- k brown -- and his assessment of what "proper" L/R placement is. Sure, if I am either the pianist or somebody standing behind them as they are performing, then the L/R image will be heard one way. But, sitting in a concert hall viewing the pianist play the piano from 30-feet or more away, well then.....the L/R image will tend to become rather "muddled", wouldn't you agree???

That's all.....

/

 

[maurizionatoli]

There's no right or wrong in regards to the L/R positioning of notes in a Classical piano recording; all matter of taste. Some prefer "player's perspective", as you described, but an audience in a Classical concert gets no clear L/R impression of low/high notes. The combination of lid reflections, floor reflections and nearby wall reflections jumbles it up; depending on the room, low and high can often seem to switch between L and R during a performance.

OP describes and properly deployed the Decca approach to recording Classical piano, which results in just what you hear: low notes to the right and high to the left. Decca almost never placed cards so close to the curve as seen in the photos, though - even for spot mics; that's a pop/jazz position.

It was also not standard practice at Decca to use APE mics as the tail pair. Tony Faulkner has been known to use a pair of M50s (which are APE mics) on piano, but much further back, and straight out from the curve, not at the tail. Much more often he uses ribbons on piano (especially as spots in a concerto).

That what’s exacly I was trying to say, sadly my English is not so good, my apologize!

 

[maurizionatoli]

Right above the piano, in the room where we were recording, the ceiling is vaulted and for this reason some frequency ranges add/subtract in an unpredictable and unpleasant way, which is why the pair of omnis was placed closer than I usually do. Only the far (omni) microphones are mounted on the sphere, the idea would be to emulate the concept of the M50 but with the capsule far from the microphone body, as you can see. The two cardioids are practically "suspended capsules", for the same reasons. Regarding the positioning of the latter, this only follows a principle, rather than a standard, each microphone has its own color, its own dynamic curve, its own personality (and each sound engineer too). This is why some time ago someone in the forum wrote (and I absolutely agree) that the method with which "shootouts" are normally done between various microphones is conceptually wrong. Anyway, thanks again for the comments, whether favorable or not, only through honest discussion do we have the opportunity to grow as professionals, designers, sound engineers, producers etc.

 

[maurizionatoli]

 

[maurizionatoli]

 

[MicMan]

I'm sorry; I was getting confused: just before reading these posts I was watching a video - and audio! - of a pianist on the JWSOUND discussions ( https://tinyurl.com/P14nistVideo ) and the video was shot from the pianist's perspective - over the shoulder, or from behind and to his right - in which the top notes on the piano are to the right - as they are when you're the pianist - and bass to the left.

I'd been confused somehow, and thought that that was the recording discussed here, and that the video clearly showed top notes to the right, bass to the left. In fact they're two unrelated recordings, and there's - I now see - no video here in GroupDIY at all!

I agree that in a concert hall - e.g; Free Trade Hall (of blessed memory), Bridgewater Hall, Albert Hall, Sydney Opera House - the sound bounces around all over the place, though 1st violins tend to come from the right, 2nd and basses from the left, timpani straight ahead, solo pianist usually to the left of the conductor. But in my mind I was still watching the video I'd just seen - on a different website!

My apologies. I must go and get my (dummy) head examined..

 

[maurizionatoli]

The photos insidie the piano are just for showing microphones

 

[cyrano]

Quite an interesting construction. Mind if I steal your idea?

 

[maurizionatoli]

Of course you can! If I were jealous wouldn't show detailed photos!

 

[maurizionatoli]

... Not for commercial use, of course!

 

[MidnightArrakis]

View attachment 127814

>> This photo reminds me of the many studio photos I've seen of The Beatles recording in the Abbey Road Studios!!!

THANKS!!!

/

 

[maurizionatoli]

View attachment 127828

>> This photo reminds me of the many studio photos I've seen of The Beatles recording in the Abbey Road Studios!!!

THANKS!!!

/

It's Abbey Road, I posted the photo just to show the position of "near" microphones according to Decca, although they normally use omnis for both near and far

 

[k brown]

I don't think that photo is of a Decca session, as Abbey Road was EMI's studio.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

FYI: Binaural Recording using a "Dummy-Head":



>> Someone coughed during the recording and I thought it was my kid behind me. He wasn't in the room. This is outstanding.

/

 

[maurizionatoli]

I don't that photo is of a Decca session, as Abbey Road was EMI's studio.

You’re right, my mistake (i apologize) . The photo is taked from “classical recording, a guide in the Decca tradition” in the section about piano recording. The studio is not AR but the University of Surrey