Manley Reference Cardioid Schematic and some analysis

[JJ Blair]

So dismissive of the Feilo capsule. That capsule is actually an excellent sounding capsule, and there is a reason that the Manley/VTL CR3A routinely beat the U87 in every shoot out we ever did between the two. I sold every 87 that ever passed through here, and still own 4 CR3A's with that "cheap" Feilo capsule, and they get used frequently. And there are fewer bigger mic snobs than I with bigger mic lockers.

 

[kingkorg]

So dismissive of the Feilo capsule. That capsule is actually an excellent sounding capsule, and there is a reason that the Manley/VTL CR3A routinely beat the U87 in every shoot out we ever did between the two. I sold every 87 that ever passed through here, and still own 4 CR3A's with that "cheap" Feilo capsule, and they get used frequently. And there are fewer bigger mic snobs than I with bigger mic lockers.

Not really dismissive about the capsule, nothing wrong about the capsule. However, the manufacturer conveniently avoids disclosing the origin and it's cost. Since capsule is the core of any mic, the fact it's a 30$ capsule at best, and of chinese origin doesn't allign well with handmade in US 3000$ mic marketing plot.

Since it's also a tube mic that basically operates in transparent, very linear fashion, and has no imprint on the sound, along with a hefty transformer, you can stick this capsule into any average FET (or even op-amp) mic and get the same results for 100$.

So it's 3000+$ for a tube circuit with 12ax7 that doesn't behave as a tube circuit, lousy PCB and soldering job, håndfull of components, a transformer they sell for 84 bucks.

https://tubesrule.com/products/7227-manley-mic-output-xmr-ref-card-gold-manley-iron

You are paying for the name and metalwork. You get a sound of a 100$ mic.

 

[Accelerator]

@Tubetec​

The body-shape of the ‘60’s Thiele Elektro-Medizin M1-5 microphones with the Wetzel M7 type capsule looks more “sexy” (to me…) than the Manley microphones body-shape, and it has “inspirited” our modern day’s Horch – Urton RM3 Mark 2 Tube Microphone Set.

 

[Accelerator]

@JJ Blair​

The only “apples to apples & oranges to oranges” that both the Manley/VTL CR3A has vs. the Neumann U-87 are the ridiculous and hilarious over-prices that both of these ridiculous and hilarious overpriced microphones have, plus the economical “mojo” of the “rich American pocket” and the “proudly made all American” totally ignorance that the “gearslutz” owners of both of them microphones also have…

If you want to buy a Tube Microphone that really sounds like a good “oldie” tube microphone, buy the Soyuz 017 Tube, or even the Flea "Vintage Series" U-47, or even the BeesNees Tribute Series U-47, or even the BSA Microphones RS-Series N°2 and you will have save plenty enough extra money to spend on hoockers, hobbies and drugs…

 

[LevinGuitar]

So dismissive of the Feilo capsule. That capsule is actually an excellent sounding capsule, and there is a reason that the Manley/VTL CR3A routinely beat the U87 in every shoot out we ever did between the two. I sold every 87 that ever passed through here, and still own 4 CR3A's with that "cheap" Feilo capsule, and they get used frequently. And there are fewer bigger mic snobs than I with bigger mic lockers.

Do theese Langevin fets are any different from Groove Tubes GT55 /Sterling ST51/Maudio Nova... mics? Same capsule, similar (if not same) circuit and same transformer.

Edit:
https://www.manley.com/legacy/lcr
https://www.manley.com/legacy/cr3a

Maybe a better biasing and Fet selection?

 

[JJ Blair]

Not really dismissive about the capsule, nothing wrong about the capsule. However, the manufacturer conveniently avoids disclosing the origin and it's cost. Since capsule is the core of any mic, the fact it's a 30$ capsule at best, and of chinese origin doesn't allign well with handmade in US 3000$ mic marketing plot.

Since it's also a tube mic that basically operates in transparent, very linear fashion, and has no imprint on the sound, along with a hefty transformer, you can stick this capsule into any average FET (or even op-amp) mic and get the same results for 100$.

So it's 3000+$ for a tube circuit with 12ax7 that doesn't behave as a tube circuit, lousy PCB and soldering job, håndfull of components, a transformer they sell for 84 bucks.

https://tubesrule.com/products/7227-manley-mic-output-xmr-ref-card-gold-manley-iron

You are paying for the name and metalwork. You get a sound of a 100$ mic.

You obviously obviously studied electronics, but I guess you didn’t go to business school. You are paying for the hourly wages and healthcare of every person working on each the mic and various other support people in the company. You are paying the distribution network. You are paying for their ability to keep spare components in stock so that they can service any of these in the future. They buy thousands and thousands of tubes, individually burn in and test every single one of them for noise and microphonics, and in some cases have rejected the overwhelming majority of the tubes they have bought. You’re paying for transportation and marketing Etc. I own many Manley products, and sloppy flux is not something I usually encounter. Judging by the date you posted this thread, I would suspect that any quality problems are due to serious staffing shortages they had during pandemic. I never find them cutting corners.

In terms of your assertion that a cascading triode will sound and behave the same as an FET, then the CR3A and the reference should sound identical, but they don’t. In the end, it’s still a plate loaded circuit, but simply cascading both sides of the twin triode.

Also, one last thing about your observation of the Feilo response vs a K67/87. The K67’s high end response is one of the most aggressive and unpleasant sounding responses of any Neumann capsule. I wouldn’t hold that as a model of what a capsule should sound like. Neumann has always dealt with this by using the NFB circuit in the 67 or the RCLP filter in the 87. I have always been very impressed with the Feilo, because I generally find the Chinese capsules to be so shrill. Also, Manley is doing much more QC on their capsules. Not everyone they buy goes into a microphone, unlike the cheap Chinese mics. I don’t know if they still do, but they used to print individual frequency plots with every single mic they sold.

If you don’t know the story, the mic that became the CR3A and later the 2001 were mics that Manley was buying whole from China at the beginning of the 90s, and upgrading the electronics and selling for about $400. The Reference Gold microphone was a completely different product, using the Josephson capsule, which was actually quite expensive. They repurposed the circuit, taking out the pattern selector portion of the circuit, but using the same circuit board and rest of the circuit, and made the reference Black using the Chinese capsule. I think it’s intellectually dishonest to criticize Manley on the retail cost of a microphone that you say you can create for a few hundred dollars. if you know business, you typically sell wholesale at twice your cost. Retailers then generally do a 50% markup above their wholesale cost. So giving the “lady owner,” whose name is EveAnna, grief, seems like a very lame flex to me, and a tad misogynistic. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[JJ Blair]

@JJ Blair​

The only “apples to apples & oranges to oranges” that both the Manley/VTL CR3A has vs. the Neumann U-87 are the ridiculous and hilarious over-prices that both of these ridiculous and hilarious overpriced microphones have, plus the economical “mojo” of the “rich American pocket” and the “proudly made all American” totally ignorance that the “gearslutz” owners of both of them microphones also have…

If you want to buy a Tube Microphone that really sounds like a good “oldie” tube microphone, buy the Soyuz 017 Tube, or even the Flea "Vintage Series" U-47, or even the BeesNees Tribute Series U-47, or even the BSA Microphones RS-Series N°2 and you will have save plenty enough extra money to spend on hoockers, hobbies and drugs…

You knew that CR3A’s were $400 new, right? The denigration of capitalism that so many posters in this forum thrive on really does a disservice to this group. The owner of Manley lives in a modest house in the suburbs, does not drive a fancy car, and pays all her employees a good living wage. I don’t know if this is your intention, but you sound like somebody who read Das Kapital too many times.

Neumann is a large multinational company owned by Sennheiser. There are a lot of salaries to be paid, marketing and promotion, research and development, as well profits that Sennheiser needs to see to justify their investment in buying a competitor. When anybody in here can create and mass produce a product that is as successful and ubiquitous as the U87, then you are free to criticize the price, and anybody willing to pay that price to have those tools available to them. Everybody else just sounds like a jealous hater who can’t afford to buy a real Neumann or can’t create their own product without ripping off somebody else’s idea and bragging about how they can do it for cheaper. it’s so toxic. Spend your time talking about the circuit and the components, and what does or doesn’t work, or what you’re doing differently to improve on it. How much better does the mic sound if you adjust the bias of the FET? What transformer sounds better in this design than the stock one? Stick to the topic. Otherwise, you just sound like somebody who’s ignorant about business.

 

[kingkorg]

You obviously obviously studied electronics, but I guess you didn’t go to business school. You are paying for the hourly wages and healthcare of every person working on each the mic and various other support people in the company. You are paying the distribution network. You are paying for their ability to keep spare components in stock so that they can service any of these in the future. They buy thousands and thousands of tubes, individually burn in and test every single one of them for noise and microphonics, and in some cases have rejected the overwhelming majority of the tubes they have bought. You’re paying for transportation and marketing Etc. I own many Manley products, and sloppy flux is not something I usually encounter. Judging by the date you posted this thread, I would suspect that any quality problems are due to serious staffing shortages they had during pandemic. I never find them cutting corners.

In terms of your assertion that a cascading triode will sound and behave the same as an FET, then the CR3A and the reference should sound identical, but they don’t. In the end, it’s still a plate loaded circuit, but simply cascading both sides of the twin triode.

Also, one last thing about your observation of the Feilo response vs a K67/87. The K67’s high end response is one of the most aggressive and unpleasant sounding responses of any Neumann capsule. I wouldn’t hold that as a model of what a capsule should sound like. Neumann has always dealt with this by using the NFB circuit in the 67 or the RCLP filter in the 87. I have always been very impressed with the Feilo, because I generally find the Chinese capsules to be so shrill. Also, Manley is doing much more QC on their capsules. Not everyone they buy goes into a microphone, unlike the cheap Chinese mics. I don’t know if they still do, but they used to print individual frequency plots with every single mic they sold.

If you don’t know the story, the mic that became the CR3A and later the 2001 were mics that Manley was buying whole from China at the beginning of the 90s, and upgrading the electronics and selling for about $400. The Reference Gold microphone was a completely different product, using the Josephson capsule, which was actually quite expensive. They repurposed the circuit, taking out the pattern selector portion of the circuit, but using the same circuit board and rest of the circuit, and made the reference Black using the Chinese capsule. I think it’s intellectually dishonest to criticize Manley on the retail cost of a microphone that you say you can create for a few hundred dollars. if you know business, you typically sell wholesale at twice your cost. Retailers then generally do a 50% markup above their wholesale cost. So giving the “lady owner,” whose name is EveAnna, grief, seems like a very lame flex to me, and a tad misogynistic. But that’s just my opinion.

I am surprised a knowledgeable person such as you chooses to omitt the body and headbasket diference between CR3A and MCR.

I am very familiar with how business works. I review a product, and i'm not interested who the owner is. So should a product earn extra points if the owner is a lady? I'm not even going into the discussion.

It is about time for companies like Manley to up their game and invest the money where it counts - the capsule. There are also units sold with totally different capsule, without notice.

I have no remorse regarding calling out companies whom base their businesses on Chinese slave labour in order to provide for US, European, or whatever developed country marketing department/distribution employees.

This comes from a person who knows more about how these companies work than about electronics, or capsules.

The biggest issue with this model is stagnation in the field, anyone can copy the business model, while companies that develop new stuff such as Shure, Neumann, DPA, Earthworks, Audio Technica, suffer. All of these have real engineers whom develop real, new, improved stuff, not based on chinese replicas of 60 yo. designs. These companies sell less expensive mics than Manley, which doesn't have support in Scandinavia. Which is the reason the mic ended up with me. So what product support?

Edit.

If you looked carefully, the board is dated 2013.

Stagnation and basing the product on false marketing doesn't help capitalism.

Not all of us care about brute force capitalism, and US's unique interpretation of it. I'm not fan of capitalism exploiting communist labor and products and still call it capitalism.

I live in a socialist, welfare system, we have VERY different, yet equaly valid view on the world.

Making stuff political doesn't change the result of the measurements i have posted.

Competition, challenging each other helps capitalism.

Canceling, ignoring facts, science, sanitizing and following "the narrative" is feature of communism

 

[SubSpec]

Having read the thread before, without any feelings of some sort of agenda or bias, I thought I would re-read again given the necro-manced outrage. I see nothing offensive or anything outside of analytical commentary on the design and construction of the microphone in question.

I'm here for primarily educational purposes as an end user, and for the occasional mod. Which is to say, I, not unlike many others here, am not here to clone microphones for profit (maybe for fun, but I haven't yet) or to b***h about being unable to afford a Neumann (or Manley). Instead I come to learn from folks who understand and can well contextualize the technical nuances of the tools I use for recording.

I greatly appreciate the kinds of analysis provided on threads like this, as it makes me a more informed consumer. I do think it is notable that a $3500 microphone is using the same inexpensive capsule used in Sterling mics. I appreciate that there is a venue like this to provide that additional context. I see nothing malicious or toxic in that.

I own a Manley Force and love it, it's a killer pre. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Manley product and also appreciate EveAnna's approach to talking about the products and brand. I don't see anything here attacking the brand, but again, simply stating that they are selling a product at a premium which contains very low cost and easy to obtain off-the-shelf components. They have and will continue to sell many of them regardless of this information being public, and they are undoubtedly good microphones in spite of the low cost capsule.

So, my point in replying is simply to say I greatly appreciate this kind of info and feel it is wholly in the spirit of the DIY oriented community here. If the concern is that consumers being informed of the details of the microphone might deter purchases, then perhaps that is reflective of a need to revisit a product that was developed when the microphone market was not as expansive as it is these days. More likely though, it won't deter many folks who were intent on purchasing the microphone to begin with.

 

[Accelerator]

@JJ Blair​

You knew that CR3A’s were $400 new, right? The denigration of capitalism that so many posters in this forum thrive on really does a disservice to this group. The owner of Manley lives in a modest house in the suburbs, does not drive a fancy car, and pays all her employees a good living wage. I don’t know if this is your intention, but you sound like somebody who read Das Kapital too many times.

Neumann is a large multinational company owned by Sennheiser. There are a lot of salaries to be paid, marketing and promotion, research and development, as well profits that Sennheiser needs to see to justify their investment in buying a competitor. When anybody in here can create and mass produce a product that is as successful and ubiquitous as the U87, then you are free to criticize the price, and anybody willing to pay that price to have those tools available to them. Everybody else just sounds like a jealous hater who can’t afford to buy a real Neumann or can’t create their own product without ripping off somebody else’s idea and bragging about how they can do it for cheaper. it’s so toxic. Spend your time talking about the circuit and the components, and what does or doesn’t work, or what you’re doing differently to improve on it. How much better does the mic sound if you adjust the bias of the FET? What transformer sounds better in this design than the stock one? Stick to the topic. Otherwise, you just sound like somebody who’s ignorant about business.

“Frankly my dear, I don’t give (for the “lady owner”) a fukk…”

And yes, I have read Karl Marx ~ Das Kapital too many times…

The whole microphone “concept” of:

“High Voltage (for high headroom…) with an inexpensive Guitar Amp. / Radio Table tube…”

It is not something brand new and it dates way, way back at the early ‘50’s, when Stanley Church, the chief sound engineer of MGM Studios used 275 DC Vb with the 6072 – 12AY7 tube or the 5751 tube (which were the Common American Guitar Amp. ~ General purpose tubes back in time at ‘50’s…), with Neumann M-7 Capsule and Triad JO-23 Transformer for his “Church Microphone”…

In our Modern days’ time Dave Perlman of ROTUND RASCAL RECORDING STUDIO ~ Perlman Microphones have re-created the “Church” Microphone $3,300.00 U.S.D…

After Stanley Church and his “Church Microphone” at 1958 the Sony Corporations used 230 DC Vb with the inexpensive Radio Table tube 6AU6 pentode wired as a triode for the Sony Model 37A, something that also did (and do) again at 1992 till today with the Sony C-800G Microphone…

The usage of the “Guitar Amp. ~ General purpose” ECC83 – 12AX7 tubes in Microphones with higher voltage for “cutting cost” it is also not something “new”…

Joachim Wetzel (born December 31, 1918, in Aue, Germany - May 1989), microphone maker of the Thiele Elektro-Medizin M1-5 microphones use the “Guitar Amp. ~ General purpose” ECC83 – 12AX7 tubes with 150 DC Vb. for “his” Thiele Elektro-Medizin M1-5 microphones way-way back at the ‘60s, with the usual problems – characteristics of “a *very* hot output and very low clean headroom.” that all the plate follower ECC83 – 12AX7 microphones have…

AKG SolidTube microphone released in 1997, (AKG’s Silver Jubilee) use the “Guitar Amp. ~ General purpose” ECC83 – 12AX7 tubes with 205 DC Vb and at least it was a very nice microphone with a reasonable price and AKG microphone soundscape characteristics due to its AKG Electret capsule.

The Chinese Alctron Microphones “family” aka APEX 460, Nady TCM 1150, Carvin CM100, Alctron HST-11A (yes, the Chinese tube microphones that everybody loves to hate and modified them because of their CCDA circuit with K-67 Capsule...) released in 2005 and continues producing to today, use the “Guitar Amp. ~ General purpose” ECC83 – 12AX7 tubes with 200 DC Vb.

I try very-very hard to find what (the fukk) the Manley Reference Cardioid Microphone with the cheap PCB board and the cheap Feilo capsule brinks at 3.195 € over the Stam Audio SA-47 MK3- Tube Condenser Microphone at $1,690.00 or even over the Stam Audio SA-67 MK3 – Tube Condenser Microphone at $1,690.00 U.S.D or even over the FAB 67 Tube Microphone at €1530 and I can’t find none…

In the same way I try very-very hard to find what (the fukk) the Manley Reference Silver with the cheap PCB board and the cheap “unknown” capsule brinks at 4.950 € over the Stam Audio SA-800G – Tube Condenser Microphone at $1,990.00, or even over the p2p (Point-to-Point) with EF12 tube BeesNees Tribute Series U-47 at $3.962.00 U.S.D, or even over the p2p (Point-to-Point) with EF95 tube Soyuz 017 Tube at 4.599 €, or even over the p2p (Point-to-Point) with EF12 tube and Haufe BV8 transformer Flea 47 Vintage at €4.457,94 and I can’t find none…

And finally (last but not least…) in the same way I try very-very hard to find what (the fukk) the Manley Gold Reference with the cheap PCB board and the Josephson capsule brinks at 6.950 € over than the p2p (Point-to-Point) with Haun CK12 capsule, NOS GE 6072 vacuum tube, Haufe T14/1 transformer BSA Microphones RS-Series N°2 Microphone System at CHF 5,500.00 or even over than the p2p (Point-to-Point) with Tim Campbell's CT12 capsule, NOS GE 6072 vacuum tube, Haufe T14/1 transformer FLEA12 Full Set CT12 Capsule & 6072 Tube at $5,275.00…

Case Closed…

So finally, as everybody out there can see the Manley Microphones are just ridiculous and hilarious overpriced crappie as a crap microphones, for idiots “gearslutz” owners, who “praise and raise” for the show-off of their 3.000 ~ 7.000 $ economical “mojo”, for their “rich-***** American pocket” and for their “proudly made all American” totally ignorance at the High End section, while in the same time in all the other world (Chile, England, Australia, Russia, Slovakia, Switzerland) real microphone makers makes tube microphones that really sounds like the good “oldie” tube microphones, and all of that with real high quality PCB & P2P construction, real high quality components, capsules, tubes and resonable prices…

So as an Old Indian proverb says for everyone out there:

“The wolf that will survived is the wolf that you will feed…”

 

[Migs 31]

Uhhhmm ok... ok.

There are other really good Manley products out there. The Mono block compressors we had at the studio in London (owned by producer & friend) come to memory.

Before and after EveAnna’s reign of sassy marketing (leather pants & motorcycle shots) Manley had quality.

But in this case (Manley Reference) I can see we all got butt fu***d by EveAnna & her techs. I will take note and continue in the way of DIY and keep my anal sphincter tight & my hard earned Euros (pun) in my pocket.

Regards
M

 

[abbey road d enfer]

That’s cool to get the schematic! Thanks kingkorg. I think the R6 and C4 is low pass filters for the k87 style capsule.

If values are correct in kingkorg's schemo; that's more like a bass boost. +3dB at 100Hz, +12 at 20Hz. Seems weird.

 

[Khron]

If values are correct in kingkorg's schemo; that's more like a bass boost. +3dB at 100Hz, +12 at 20Hz. Seems weird.

How would it boost the bass, by "draining away" high frequencies? One could argue the net result is "the same", but it might be a bit inaccurate(?)...

I haven't run a sim of the schematic, but i'd expect that to be more like a high-shelf attenuation. But kingkorg's sweeps of the circuit look to be pretty much ruler-flat? But i guess there's the transformer feedback stuff at play, as well...

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I am chocked at the turn this thread is taking.
In a recent heated thread, I've been defending the position that not everything is political.
I advocated making the difference between posts that describe and explain economic realities, such as mark-up in manufacturing and distribution, and those that make moral judgement about them.
I see that the gap has been easily crossed.
@ Accelerator, I would advise you to avoid adding the f..k word just about every other sentence. It doesn't add to the substance. Just makes you look bad-mannered.
@ JJ Blair, I've been a manufacturer and distributor for many years. I know very well how and why mark-ups are established. In our industry, it is quite typical to see a product that costs $100 to produce to reach the market at $1200, not 3k. I would say the premium is based on a lot of subjectivity, not on economical constraints. Although I would bear no judgement, I can understand why some may think it outrageous.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

How would it boost the bass, by "draining away" high frequencies? One could argue the net result is "the same", but it might be a bit inaccurate(?)...

I agree that cutting highs is about the same as boosting lows, however the circuit really cuts "treble" from 100 Hz up.

I haven't run a sim of the schematic, but i'd expect that to be more like a high-shelf attenuation. But kingkorg's sweeps of the circuit look to be pretty much ruler-flat? But i guess there's the transformer feedback stuff at play, as well...

Of course. The "bass boost/treble cut" is in the Open Loop Gain. I guess - again if the values are correct - it could create a significant headroom problem at LF.
That may be the reason for the drastic increase of THD at LF.