maximum capacitance for solid state power sections

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imo

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Hello,
Not having an EE background, my knowledge has come in starts, a bit here a bit there. I spent a few trying days trying to trudge through the Op Amp cookbook, i took it as a zen challenge, a temporary defeat to be reattacked at a later date. Tube gear has been more friendly to me and i have made some headway through the back door of tube amps...So
I know that there are maximum capacitance levels for tube recitifiers, but with solid state rectification, do the same concepts still apply or is there more play in this area? I ask as i often find myself with spare caps, and not much knowledge of how much bigger i can go, or a formula as to how to determine it.
I am clamboring to get out of the paint by numbers world and these "of course" moments are quite helpful, so thanks in advance.
Ian
 
Yes solid state rectifiers can feed bigger caps, but do you think about what happens to the power transformer at turn on when it has such a big reserivoir I mean such a significant short circuit to accomodate?
 
Be careful not to exceed the peak ratings of your rectifier diodes by having too many large capacitors across the rails.
Many smaller low-ESR caps in parallel often will work better than one big cap (which can have a much higher ESR).

The actual amount of capacitance depends on your load requirements.
For a steady-state load you are attempting to reduce the supply ripple to a negligible amount. The amount of capacitance to do this is easily calculated once you know your load parameters.
For a transient load (eg power amp), you not only want to reduce the ripple to a negligible amount, but you also want to be able to produce peak currents far in excess of the transformer rating for good transient response. Hence large capacitors are used to supply very large currents to the output devices for short periods of time.
 
> I know that there are maximum capacitance levels for tube recitifiers

Not true.

The rating is Peak Current. You control this with winding resistance.

Tube data sheets often ASS-ume "typical" capacitance AND resistance to give quick-use data. Indeed since these values ARE typical (copper and iron have not changed much), we fall into the habit of 20uFd-40uFd tube capacitors.

But allow a somewhat higher winding resistance, like 1,000 ohms on a 5Y3 fed 300V, and you can go thousands of uFd.

> with solid state rectification, do the same concepts still apply

If you had been doing rigorous tube-rect calculations, the same figuring works for solid-state.

If you wanna do "5Y3=20uFd" type rough-and-ready figuring, then pick a rectifier steady-state current rating bigger than the transformer rating. And don't sweat the capacitance.

Note: transformer rating! If you have a 0.1A load and a spare 3A winding, you use a 3A rectifier.

And unlike tube practice, where current is expensive, in modern solid-state rectifiers the current is cheap. So always round UP. For a "3A" winding, whatever load I really have on it, I would prefer to use 6A rectifiers. A 3A will last years, a 6A will last a century.

OK, here's the practical difference.

Tube amps need lots of power, often at several voltages, so they cost a lot. So you will usually "right-size" the transformer. And it usually won't have "too low" winding resistance for the rectifiers usually used for that power level. But if you take the PT out of a Marshall Mega, 700mA, and power a 90mA 5Y3 with "safe" 35uFd first cap, you will possibly have trouble. But that would be dumb, so you don't run into that trap so often.

Transistor stuff often needs less power than the smallest transformer. A couple op-amps is less than a half-Watt, low-price PTs start at 10VA. So you are forced to face the fact that the rects must be sized to the transformer, not the actual load.

> Be careful not to exceed the peak ratings of your rectifier diodes ... Many smaller low-ESR caps in parallel often will work better than one big cap

For low rectifier stress we would favor high ESR.

But cap ESR is never "significant" in audio systems. (Or when it is, as in buzzy old guitar amps, it means you want new caps to get ESR down to like-new level.) Winding resistance is the dominant resistance around the loop.

> attempting to reduce the supply ripple to a negligible amount.

It is rarely practical to get ripple on the first cap much below a few percent. Further rejection must be added as needed. In small-power stages, with additional R-C filters. In low-volt or fussy systems, regulators are popular. Audio Power amps are designed so the last stage has significant power supply rejection (and rejection still goes to zero when you clip heavily, as in stage-amp use).

> For a transient load (eg power amp), you not only want to reduce the ripple to a negligible amount, but you also want to be able to produce peak currents far in excess of the transformer rating for good transient response.

Most audio power amps "must" survive full power bench tests. Your filter caps must satisfy two goals: inaudible ripple at idle, and satisfactory voltage and ripple at Full power. Many older amps slacked-off on the second requirement. If the amp is "solid" at maximum power, it is difficult to contrive a legal "transient" which will suck the caps down.
 
Wow! Definitely concepts to chew on. I guess i was jumping a step with the rectifier(tube) drawing a certain current from the PT and the capacitor size being defined by this as opposed to the actual tube rectifier itself .
I was asking the question about cap size as i was going to sub some caps in a power section. It was calling for 2200U and the closest i had was a 3300U. The PT is a toroid overrated voltage(30vA@ 24v for a pretty small load). I'm assuming the toroid has a low winding resistance, its going into a fullwave 4003 rectifier, so it seems that there would be plenty of extra headroom (max peak current of 30A), as well as in the transformer to handle the inrush of current if a bigger cap was substituted
I know how to calculate necessary capacitor value for power supply ripple, I think i understand a bit more about where to look for limitations on cap sizes.
Thanks
Ian
 
> It was calling for 2200U and the closest i had was a 3300U.

2, 3, what's the difference? You are not building a Mars rocket.

> 30vA@ 24v for a pretty small load

"small load" or not, a 30VA 24V is 1.25A and you need over 1.25A rectifiers.

OK, for hasty-build I would stick 1-Amp 1N400x in there. They won't die, not quick.

For life-time build, I'd want 2A diodes, and they are not expensive (lot cheaper than a real 5Y3!).

> fullwave 4003 .. headroom (max peak current of 30A

If the tranny is rated 1.25A at 10% sag, it can do (about) 12.5A at 100% sag. So yeah, 1N400x will probably do fine. I just don't like to work that hard.

Have you found Duncan's Power Supply Calculator? You should.

A quick run with 3300uFd says 12.8 Amps first peak, 0.8 Amps RMS over the first second, 0.17A peaks and 21mA RMS after the first second.

index.php


Changing to 33,000uFd (ten times higher) gives 17A first peak 2A RMS over the first second. Bigger, but hardly 10 times bigger.

2200uFd gives 11A first peak 0.7A RMS over the first second. Note that this is "no different" than the 3300uFd case. The uncertainty in the winding resistance (which could be double what I assumed) exceeds the difference caused by next-size-up cap.
 

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wow. great stuff again. These are the things that are hard to pick up in books. The 4003 specs out, but i understand the desire to overbuild, especially when the additional cost is so negligible.
I appreciate the time you guys take to explain "between the lines". These are the trouble spots for me, and it really is helpful.
Don't quite understand the virtual beer thing, but if you find yourself around Seattle, or possibly Austin, i will buy you a real one
Best
ian
 
Hey, I'm in a similar situation as this thread so I figured i'd jump onto this very old thread rather than start another. I'm recapping a Peavey Classic Chorus 212 and the 4 pin snap in electrolytics are rated 4700uf/63v. These caps are impossible to find. I can only find 4300uf/63v or 8600/63v that will fit into this area. It's been a real pain as I had ordered 5600uf/100v without measuring the area because it was the only option that close and I figured it would be fine.

So that being said. The rectifier has four 1n5402 diodes that are as you know 3 amp diodes. The transformer I have no information on.

I'm assuming going down to 4300uf would be safer and probably fine as it's within 10%, rather than almost doubling the main reservoir caps to 8600uf. Can anyone comment on this?

Thank you,
Ryan
 
I tracked down info on the transformer. It's 110 Watts, 34-0-34, and 20-0-20. Do y'all think I can raise the main filter caps from 4700uf/63v to 8600uf/63v? Or would 4300uf/63v work better?

Thank you,
Ryan
 
I tracked down info on the transformer. It's 110 Watts, 34-0-34, and 20-0-20. Do y'all think I can raise the main filter caps from 4700uf/63v to 8600uf/63v? Or would 4300uf/63v work better?
The 4300uF would give performance very similar to a 4700 that has some years under the belt. Electrolytics often have a +/-20+% tolerance, so a new 4700 may well actually be under 3800.
As to using a 8600 there (what strange values BTW, 'lytic capacitors are supposed to be in the E6 system), it depends very much on the transformer. It may be wise to add a surge limiter such as this
NTC Thermistor 15 Ohms , 3A if not already fitted.
 
I tracked down info on the transformer. It's 110 Watts, 34-0-34, and 20-0-20. Do y'all think I can raise the main filter caps from 4700uf/63v to 8600uf/63v? Or would 4300uf/63v work better?
I would use this capacitor in that position
(ALP22A472BB063, can be found in the Mouser, etc.)

1639826352820.png


and I would not use higher capacity capacitors as this could change the sound of the whole system a bit, IMO.
 
I would use this capacitor in that position
(ALP22A472BB063, can be found in the Mouser, etc.)

View attachment 87372
That would indeed be the safe option.
and I would not use higher capacity capacitors as this could change the sound of the whole system a bit, IMO.
I would think the only noticeable audible difference would be less sag, which may (or may not) be perceived as an improvement...
 
I would think the only noticeable audible difference would be less sag, which may (or may not) be perceived as an improvement...

It could also be said that increasing the capacitance of the capacitors changes also the maximum value of the pulse charging current of the capacitor and its harmonic structure, which in a poorly designed power supply can also result in affecting the sound of the system. The magnitude of the change also depends on the transformer design and the characteristics of the rectifier diodes.
 
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Pulled out the schematic while about to order those NTC thermistors, and noticed CL60 after TB1, right before the primary of the transformer. I'm assuming that CL stands for current limiter. When I had the amp open last time I noticed a black cap looking thing after the switch. So I'm guessing in this context I wouldn't need an NTC thermistor?

Ryan
Screen Shot 2021-12-20 at 1.59.38 PM.png
 
Pulled out the schematic while about to order those NTC thermistors, and noticed CL60 after TB1, right before the primary of the transformer. I'm assuming that CL stands for current limiter. When I had the amp open last time I noticed a black cap looking thing after the switch. So I'm guessing in this context I wouldn't need an NTC thermistor?
Correct.
It's interesting to note that the export version does not have it.
 

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