Microphone rant

[pmroz]

.
Kruz, no offense meant. We're in the same boat, mine is slower though. And IMO your English is pretty good.

Gus, something you might offer in a kit is specific advice for the mic they're modding, such as remove inner grille etc. as some of the bodies etc are different. Like the Oktava mod post somewhere, tape op was it?

With the poor QC of china capsules, how does your circuit sound with different capsules? I mean consistency-wise. And do you have a favorite body/grille style for it? Some of the mics might not turn out as good as others because of the capsules, but then, some people might not know the difference.

If you go the PCB route I'm a future customer...
and you could also offer boards stuffed with trafos, same size as the popular China mic PCBs, for less-adventurous. Thought that idea of one PCB scored to fit several bodies was good (in other thread).
-

 

[Scodiddly]

[quote author="pmroz"].
Gus, something you might offer in a kit is specific advice for the mic they're modding, such as remove inner grille etc. as some of the bodies etc are different. Like the Oktava mod post somewhere, tape op was it?
[/quote]

Extra documentation in the kit is always good - my kits included some 23Mb of photos showing the whole process. Not the kind of thing you'd put on a website unless you had big money for bandwidth, but easy enough to put on CDR and throw into the box.

 

[skipwave]

Gus,

I have benefitted from your posts, and I'm grateful for the knowledge you share. Of course, I'm looking for any way to reciprocate. The same is true of this whole DIY community. The more I gain, the more I wish to give back.

Take Scodiddly' s Alice kits as a case study. I bought one and am extremely happy with the results. As my first mic build, I wouldn't have attempted it on my own with just a schemo and parts list. The instructions were the selling point for me. With that under my belt I could attempt my next build on my own.

You could do very well with kits or mail order mods. There is definitely a demand for either.

FWIW, this is the only board I take mic advice from, because I trust the long-time members to call anyone out who's full of sh*t. That's respect hard earned and well-deserved.

Brian

 

[nacho459]

oops

 

[nacho459]

[quote author="Scodiddly"]With the Alice mic I was surprised at how many people wanted kits. That's despite the fact that I'd posted pretty much everything, even a Mouser parts list and a link to the capsule source. Some folks just don't like venturing out on their own, I guess.[/quote]

Well, I ordered a pre assembled Alice, not so much that I didn't want to DIY, but because I figured if I wanted one of Scott's mics, why not buy one the designer himself built?

 

[sbranco]

Finally, a thread I can contribute to precisely because I don't have any idea what I am doing!

A couple years ago, my bandmates and I upgraded our preamps by building two N72 modules from 7th Circle. Our best preamp was a Studio Projects VTB-1, which we were guided to by reading forums like Mojo Pie. We got two Digimax LT's so that we would have plenty of pretty good pre's for drums. We were looking at maybe getting pro preamp say $500 and up because all the forums indicated a big difference in sound. Saw some recommendations for 7th Circle on gearslutz. We never considered DIY until then. Good docs, complete kit, photos.

The quality of each module and ability to expand with different types of pre's in the same box sealed the deal for us. Also fact that one buddy has an electrical engineering degree and can read a schematic.

The vast majority of musicians out there cannot read a schematic. They are stuck with whatever is available commercially from the mfg's. Even with a great complete kit with documentation, most folks would never attempt to build a component.

After getting two decent pre's we started looking at mics. We had an SP-C1 and wanted something better. Nothing seemed much better unless you spend $1,000 or more. I was considering the Apex 460. The Apex 460 cost about $220 and the modded ones by Dave Thomas in Canada ran about $300 on ebay. That's $80 for the mod, which I think is just bypassing the cathode follower and upgrading the tube. I say "just" but that is a big deal to majority of people who don't know what a cathode follower stage is (including me)

When I first saw Gyraf's brass tube mic and read the first posts on this website, I really thought you guys were half in the can or something. There is another diy website where some guys were saying they could hear the difference in solder they used to build things. Really c'mon.

I followed threads and links back to the Royer article and over time learned to respect what you guys were posting.

I was going to start with a compressor like the 1176 but in the end it looks like a UAD-1 will give us the most bang for the buck even though we still don't have one.

So it seems like mics were the best diy thing we could do. You guys don't realize how much of a pain the ass DIY is for people who don't know how to DIY! A kit family would have been great - Buy your own Nady 1150 or Apex 460 and then buy my kit. Kit 1 turn your mic into a C800Gish mic. Step 1, Step 2, etc. Use the pcb supplied in the kit. Kit 2 - turn your mic into an Elam 251ish mic, Kit 3 - G7, Kit 4 etc.

I think you could minimize customer service time by saying that you are not going to provide it. Just say that you will supply the kit and have a website with a forum so builders can help each other. Maybe you could answer posts on your website as time permits or something.

But I'll bet Tim Ryan still does not sell that many 7th circle pre's even with great docs and stuff compared to the volume sold to the masses. Someone may use the stuff you post on here to try to market it to the masses but the average joe is not going to wade through the endless posts on this website to glean what they need to mod a mic or whatever.

From what I gathered on this website knowing virtually nothing about electronics, I bought two Behringer B2 pros on ebay for $99 each. I also bought two Apex 460's for $190 open box from musiciansbuy.com

I bought three Cinemag and one Lundhal transformers plus various parts and tubes from about a dozen different sources plus getting two diaphrams from Dale.

At the end I am hoping to end up with six different tube mics and four power supplies. Now that the parts are all here, I need to involve my electrical friend before we start the work.

DIY has been fun but it is also an unbelievable amount of work. I would have loved to have a step 1, step 2 post for the mods, but I learned fairly quickly that this forum is not about that. That's fine. I'm lazy. I don't know electronics and I am too old to go back and learn to apply Ohm's law at this point. OK if it was only Ohm's law I could but its way more than that.

My focus is really on the music. But we are music DIYer's and I need to get the most bang for my bucks. Some spare time I have, but unlimited funds I do not! You can sink a lot of money in a home studio. Although the equipment has come a long way, you can spend a lot of money and still have the sound be a long way from pro.

Kits could be very successful and helpful to lots of folks. You would not be trying to get the hardcore DIYers because they always think they can build the same thing from stuff in their basement for a few bucks. You would be wanting to pull folks like me from buying the mass market stuff.

Hope my experience helps you figure out what to do. I have really enjoyed reading all this stuff. Hopefully we'll have something to show for it soon.

 

[tommypiper]

Yeah. Gus, you are a great resource here and I would be sorry to see you uncomfortable about sharing your ideas, or withholding your thoughts and experiments out of fear of being ripped off or not getting credit, etc... At least rest assured we all on this forum recognize your contributions and appreciate them, and appreciate you.

I see several options if you want to make some hay with your knowledge. 1) Kits. Or just PCBs and instructions. Mail order. Scott Dorsey has sold a lot of those PCBs for China mics. 2) Instructions only. Mail order, hard copy only, which prevents unauthorized distribution via emails. This is selling your knowledge and requires no cash outlay on your part. You could have people agree in advance not to share the mods, like a software license or something. It would be somewhat effective and you'd sell some of these mod instructions - I'd buy one. 3) Mics. As others have posted, start your own line of production. But you know the other companies and makers out there will sniff out what you are doing and may copy it or do similar versions.

In the end there is no iron door that will protect your info and over time it will spread. No copyright or trademark ever completely protects intellectual property over time, and in fact there is a very good movement that argues for the relaxation of these protections without undue harm to the owners of these innovations.... Another subject, but just mentioning it because complete protection may not be the best goal in the end. It will be in your interest to be known as the author of whatever information you share, and as such your esteem and rep will grow, as it has here already.

In the meantime, I'm still hoping to figure out what to do with my 32mm Chinese mics!

cheers,
tommypiper

 

[amphibic]

i'm with sbranco!!
although i have only been around for a very short time here, i have already learned to really appreciate Gus's input, dedication and expertise.

Good idea with the name sismofyt! I think a Danish name would work too
But if you would like to use a German one Gus, we could go into business together as Gustav & Hoffmann!!! What do you think Gus??

peace

Neal (Hoffmann)

 

[sismofyt]

hoffman mics.. mm.. cool, not too nazi, makes me think of beer ('Hof' is a Carlsberg nickname). actually i saw a mic made out of a beer bottle once (photoshop?)

 

[amphibic]

can i have my second 'n' back please?

 

[Gus]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=47406

now there is a filter added for the capsule high end?????

People what are the prices people charge and people pay for the tube microphone changes done that you read about on the web?

I know that anything I post might be read and possably used. I am trying to find a balance.

I am not upset with WOB. I chuckle when I read some things at different web sites about microphones. Klaus's forum is often good for a chuckle and sometimes good infomation.

I have a number of MXL microphones I use for testing things first. The 32mm cardiod 6 micron ones seem to have good QC in the mxls I own.

 

[smallbutfine]

I was appreciating all the knowledge i got from your posts, Gus.
You were very helpful to all mic newbs like me.
Asking for the prices people would pay for mic mods is somewhat difficult...

the prices for good microphones ( or should i say mics "people call magic") are generally almost esoteric, and so are the differences in sound sometimes. I listened to some clip collections dealing with all kind of mics under comparable recording circumstances, and guess what...i was pretty much confused about the results.
u4*7 definately has that incredible magic thing on a good voices...but sound quality is definately spreaded alot depending on the single mic.
With ELAM and C800g it's the same...
From a monetary point of view i would not consider to go thru all the hassle of sending a 99$ mic back and forth thru the world, paying much more than i paid for the mic itself. Just a psychological barrier i think alot of people have...
The ADK tube mic i bought in the us, for example, costed me nearly twice the evilbay price on customs and postal sevices until i got it at home...
Quite the same like i had with my Alesis 3630 mod - there was a fancy "change every aspect of this compressor including resistor upgrade 'n stuff"-Kit i would never have bought, just because it would have been twice the price of the unit itself...

If you are going the mod service way, you will probably loose alot of international customers that way. On the other hand, you will have total control over the quality that leaves your service...

As a customer i would spend just the same amount of money for modding a mic as i spent for the mic itself, not more, as a general rule...
If the mic is very cheap and a mod would give outstanding quality enhancements i would consider investing twice the cost of the mic for it.
If it would be a kit of whatever kind or a mod service wouldn't make a difference for me...

^Don't be offended, Gus, if this fazit doesn't meet your thoughts, but you asked really clearly for prices people would pay, and nobody answered your questions so far. I just wanted to be honest about my thoughts as a customer of musical devices because you deserve some hints from us about what to do with your ideas.

I hope this helps you a little bit.

Kind regards and again,
thanks alot for all the information you shared with the community so far

Martin

 

[sbranco]

Seems to me there may be some opportunity in the $300 to $800 range of the market. There are the inexpensive tube cheapies out there - Apex, Nady, cheap SP-1, Carvin, etc. - all below $250. Then you start with SE, ADK, Royer and others that seem to start around $1,000. In between you've got the SP-T1 at $450-$500 and not much more I think. Even the AKG 414 and U87 are over $800 to get a well respected condenser.

Not many options for someone with a $600 budget.

If its homegrown type kits your looking at, I would look at 7th circle as a model. We could have gotten a two channel Buzz Audio, Brent Averill, Vintech, Grace, John Hardy, etc. for about $2,000. Instead we got a two channel kit for about $1,000. Plus we can expand a little cheaper and easier by buying different modules and fitting them in the existing case.

DIYers do this stuff because they like to. It isn't always cheaper and they know that.

The mass music folks might do it as a challenge or maybe they have more time than money. I think we had more than 24 hours putting together those preamps.

That said, it looks like even some fairly hardcore DIYers will buy Gustav's or Fabio's boards to make their lives easier even though they could etch their own boards. DIY is a relative thing. Some will wind their own transformers, some might construct their own capacitors or make their own capsules. We all have our limits as to what we will DIY.

If you are trying to copy the quality of $3,500 to $5,500 mics and maybe you can deliver 2/3 of that, I still think it would be hard to charge over $1,200 for a kit or small company mic.

Value has to be there like in the Royer. Readily available mics to mod. Kits with parts list and instructions in the article. A $200 kit plus your time and a $100 mic and you get a $1,000 mic - sweet.

No doubt 7th circle makes some of its money on bulk. They say you can't hardly buy the parts any cheaper than you can get them from Tim. I would buy 2 he buys 100. He offers minimal and full kits but many say its not worth it to save $20 and have to source the various parts.

Hope that helps on the pricing.

 

[sismofyt]

sorry, here ya go: n

 

[sismofyt]

i thought about this middle road; how about buying a few X mics, say five, mod them and sell them? then buy a few more when there's new orders comming in. then you wouldn't have to go throug the hazzle with people fucking up your mod, countless emails back and forth and it's cheaper shipping for everybody

i'm not into DIY mics these dayz as i don't need mics much, but i've always loved your posts. KH forum can be a bit too much .. hmm.. i dunno, uptight

 

[tk@halmi]

Gus,

Ask yourself ten more times: what am I trying to do here?
How well do you take criticism? How well do you take criticism and nearly no compensation? Do you like trips to the post office and stand in line often? Are there activities that you could do that pay better or more fulfilling?

Cheers,
Tamas

 

[dale116dot7]

Yup. I'm finding that with my mic capsule project. Too much work for the amount I get out of it. I don't think I would do it again.

-Dale

 

[Freddy G]

Gus,

Just wanted to let you and everyone here know that I really appreciate the advice you gave me regarding modding the capsule voltage of my pair of G7 mics. I know that you've contacted me regarding the outcome of this mod and I said I'd let you know. The fact is that I have not really had the time to do these mods yet...but I'm really curious as I hope it will give them more bass...they don't have a big proximity effect.
For me though, autumn and winter are for building guitars and I really focus on that more than audio and DIY. So it may be some time before I get to the mods. Please believe me that I will share my thoughts regarding your mod outcome ASAP.

Regards,
Freddy

http://home.cogeco.ca/~lothar/G7s.jpg

 

[BYacey]

Gus, Please don't become a Klaus...

 

[Gus]

People thanks for the nice words.

Here are some ethical type problems about posting here and other places. Without seeing inside I think I know what is done to mod some microphones like the km84(not just caps). Now should I post it and take the money away from someone that makes money at modding them? I did tell one lab member who tried it with their 84s.

IMO somethings posted on the web are sometimes just wrong, should I post a correction and if I do who looks bad. One thing I have seen are posts stating the TLM103 is a chip amp, it is not a chip amp it has a cmos chip used in a dc to dc converter circuit part, the rest of the circuit is discrete parts, not a bad circuit but I think I hear ceramics in it. Some parts are unmarked and coated.

I have some good microphones and have heard some good microphones, so when I read posts about this microphone vs that microphone I sometimes wonder if it is the same microphone models I have heard?

Now the problem with making money with china tube microphone mods is there is the rode K2 and the SP t3 etc. The rode not a bad microphone for the money or sound(I have not heard a T3 but I would guess it sounds good).

Just because a k2 is a rode I think it might be overlooked.

Bill what happened at Klaus's? I posted a few light tech posts and they were removed.