Neve 1073/1084 original wiring

[Aaronrash]

Hi everyone,

As you all probably know, most die hard Neve enthusiast including BAE state that a 1073 circuit will not sound the same as a original if it's on a circuit board.  Mark from BAE says the original wire introduces capacitance into the circuit witch is a key part in the 1073s sound.

How much this changes the sound is debatable of course but I cant help wanting to build my own clone with wiring and also build my own BA283/284 cards and try it out. I already have a pair of EZ1073's that sound great but of course I'm wondering if I had one built like the original if it would sound even better. I used to have a pair of AMS1084's that I love dearly and had to let them go.

I would imagine it's not much of a difference since AMS sells their dual channel 1073's on circuit boards. So does anyone here know what type of wiring was used in the original?

 

[API]

Define "better"

 

[3nity]

i think its a marketing thing!
But for me the ez1084 sounds just amazing!

 

[Aaronrash]

Well for instance... I was bringing back vocal takes of me from when I had my 1084s, I owned them for about 4 years. And comparing them to vocal takes of me on my new EZ1073s I built and it almost feels like the EZ1073s are kinda boomy and pillow like while the 1084 are tighter sounding and creamy/syrupy if that makes any sense.

I went completely out on my EZ1073s. I used all the same polystyrene caps and mustard caps that were used in the orignials, I even used vintage BC184Cs as well as tantalum caps everything is original except its on a pcb so that's what lead me to believe wiring could make it sound that different?

The only way to tell for sure is to rent a AMS or vintage unit and use a Y cable to compare them directly

Here's my EZ1073s

 

[desol]

I don't know man....i think it's something else. Stray inductance's and capacitance's don't convince me entirely.

 

[3nity]

I remember i heard a story from someone.
That the carnhill transformers,  Audio Maintenance sells are not the same as used by AMS.
They are somehow differents maybe thats why?

 

[Bassniac]

You could order the transformers from AMS...
Like the knobs.

 

[KDE]

Complete Neve head over here  ;D

To answer your question Neve used Canford Wire for all there wiring its been pretty well documented. Companies such as Heritage Audio and AMSNeve today use Canford Wire on their clones. The reason why clones including AMSNeve don't sound like Vintage "Original" Neve are because

1) Correct output transformer. The LO 1166 is the heart of the "Neve sound" and is really gives the beef to the recording. Current clones whether its BAE, AMSNeve, Heritage Audio all use Carnhill Transformers. Carnhill does not and has never made the LO 1166. Geoff has said many times that Carnhill had to do 5 revisions of its current LO 1166 replacement before Neve accepted it. Carnhill makes CLONE transformers of the LO 1166s and never did quite a good job at it. The real LO 1166 was made by both Marinair and Morite Winding Co and the original spec sheets are lost.

1) Correct Input Transformers. The 10468 Mic and 31267 Line Transformer were made by Marinair and the 10468 was a stock transformer they made even before Neve came along. Eventually St. Ives got involved in the manufacture of both of them which are used in original Neve manufactuing as well. Marinair's are the preferred input transformers as they are the better sounding and Vintage 10xx series with Marinair transformers are generally worth more money. Carnhill once again makes a clone of the St. Ives version which is a particularly good clone as Carnhill bought out St. Ives and has the original speck sheets. But Carnhills do not sound like original Marinairs. Marinair being the original designers of both transformers did not give St. Ives all the details on how to make the exact transformers as stipulated by Geoff.

2) Correct 70s transistors. The BA283/183 is the core of the "1073/1290 sound" and makes these units what they are. Transistor manufacturing has almost been reinvented so using modern transistors will NOT give you the original sound. They just don't make transistors as terrible as they used to be. The BA283 used 2n3055's, BC184C's and in some cases BC109C/BC107's. The BC109C/BC107 combo is found in most of the earlier Neve's from the vintage units and through my own conclusions  i have come to believe they are the originally intended transistors rather than the 184C's. Most Neves used "Motorola" and "New Market" Transistors. Getting the 2n3055 right is highly important for the sound.

3) Tantalum Capacitors essential to the Original Neve sound. Not much to really say other than Neve used Mullard brand caps and vintage repairs use the current BC/Philips/Mullard Brand Caps.

4) Correct brand switches are ELMA and Diamond H brand switches. Blore Edwards switches (which are used in the current AMS remakes) were used in a very very small amount of Original Neves.

5) Lastly to do Neve's right get the RAF Blue Grey paint and make sure its right because i've seen all sorts of funky wanna be colored Neves.

If your EZ1073's don't sound like Vintage units enough your problem most likely lies with the list above and not with the Canford wiring! Also finding vintage Transformers are a pain i would suggest using Ed Andersons remakes over the current Carnhill recreations. I've heard a lot of great things about them and people who have A/B'ed them have chose them over Carnhills. Once again not to put Carnhill down they make great transformers but something was lost IMO. Also that seems to be the common consensus and why current remakes don't have the vintage sound. Take everything with a grain of salt.

 

[jrowell]

Yes, the 'pillowy, boomy' sound of many of the clones and repros, except AMS Neve's are increasingly recognized.

The BAE modules even have these issues right out of the box as well.

KDE makes some really valid points, and a great explanation of the transformer linage.

However there is more to it then that and the differences in transformers are swamped by the other typical issues.

Transistors are important as well, but again swamped by the typical common mistakes.

Neve used selected Motorola 2N3055 and the Newmarket screened ones were apparently pretested to Neve specifications.

The typical issues I mentioned are prevalent in all the clones, repros (except AMS) and particularly most DIY ones.

This is so common now that many of the vintage Neve modules I service have the same issues.

These things all together make the units sound poorly overall. It has become laughably common.

There are a lot of vintage modules around that are supposedly restored that have never been heard properly.

Over pronounced pillowy bottom, cardboardy mid and a little sharp and harsh.

Many people started reproing Neve stuff without paying enough attention to original design intent or factory methods.

Even UA doesn't follow the original factory proceedures with the 1176 reissue.

A lot of people complain about those as well. We have a range of fixes for those too.

As far as the Neve stuff I recommend having a Neve service technician who is experienced with the actual correct methods and reasons for them to check over and rectify these issues.

Layout, original style cards, and wiring do play a last little bit role, but again the other common and more readily dealt with issues play much more of a role.

Neve originally used NEK wire, the company that made it was bought by Canford and the Canford FST wire is quite close. Not exact, it is stiffer but is very close.

James Rowell
Owner / Head Technician
Sound Service Electronics
www.ssevintageaudio.com
www.facebook.com/ssevintageaudio

 

[KDE]

Lets be reminded that there are over 20 different versions of the 1073 that came out during the 70s all with different parts and circuit changes. Some of them drop -4dB @ 20k when the EQ circuit is engaged and some of them don't have this problem at all. Revisions were made just like any product and who knows which version the "Cloner" used in his design or if he was even aware that there were revisions to incorporate. Also there are a wide variety of parts and manufactures as mentioned so these vintage modules vari from one to the next with different combinations of parts and there is no real gold standard for the 1073.

Neve used selected Motorola 2N3055 and the Newmarket screened ones were apparently pretested to Neve specifications.

Do you know specifically what specs they were looking for with the 2n3055?

 

[ruffrecords]

Xeverything is original except its on a pcb so that's what lead me to believe wiring could make it sound that different?

Is the iron original??

Cheers

Ian

 

[jrowell]

Certainly the number of revisions is a factor as well.

Some of the changes were pretty major and affected the base tone and operational response.

Some of them were minor to middling and primarily had to do with component line value changes and component availibility.

This is particularly important when filling a vintage Neve frame as it is what causes the 'each original 1073 sounds different' comment.

If you go across and match them all to a chosen common revision that issue is greatly reduced.

Depending on what is there and which revisions are in play and what changes have been done post factory it can be a bit of work. But so worth it.

Of course when the desk was originally constructed all the modules fitted would have been from the same production.

Then all those modules got stripped out and sold all over individually.

Now we go to put a console back together and have to deal with this.

That is what makes an all original Neve like the Sound City desk so valuable in my mind.

All modules original to the desk as built.

For the 2N3055 they were selecting for full audio bandwidth response.

A 3055 was produced as a high power (at the time) transistor for DC power supply use.

Original transformers are nice to have but the other factors and the common mistakes more than cover up any transformer differences.

The new ones spec and test exactly the same, of course that doesn't mean that much.

Ed Anderson's 1176 output transformer is superior to what UA is using in their repros so I can surmise the Neve stuff is great too.

I have never had occasion to use them yet as they are not original form factor.

James

 

[Aaronrash]

Hey James,

I actually got my NOS Fairchild BC184Cs from you a few months back. They are the ones I used for this build.

Since I've never used vintage 10** modules I'm not really sure how they sound but I had my 1084s for several years and I know exactly how they sound. Here's what's strange though... The reissues from AMS have the ST 2N3055 and use all the same caps and parts that mine was built with. The only difference I can state between mine and the AMS is the transformers are both from carnhill but neve uses "exclusive" ones. Could they really sound that different? Could that be what's giving me the pillow like boomy sound or could it be the wiring factor too because I really went out of my way to build my EZ1073s as close to original spec as possible.

Perhaps getting a hold of the transformers AMS uses could fix this if anyone is able to get a hold of them. That or maybe the EA transformers but I can't find his EA1166 for sale anywhere.

I thought I would also note that I had a BAE I used from my friend for several months before I got my AMS1084s and they sound really good too. They don't sound boomy or pillowish like my EZ1073s. One thing I've noticed about the AMS and the BAE is anything you run through them just has a creamy super thick sweet sound. It literally sounds like candy to me. My EX1073s just aren't doing that. I've ran mixes though mine and I can't even hear a before after difference. Even worse I used a Y cable to shoot it out against a $200 focusrite pre and I could barely even hear a difference. Something isn't right here...

If you say the BAE units are having this problem right out of the box, I'm guessing the issue lies within the transformers and AMS exclusive hype really isn't just a sales pitch, it's the truth. On the other hand, tony Belmont at gearslutz says he has a handwritten letter from the president of carnhill stating they are the exact same transformer. I don't really know what to believe but my ears hear differences. Could you possibly source me a pair of M2N3055s selected for full bandwidth?

Most people would hear my Ez1073s and be blown away I mean they do sound really good, but after owning the 1084s for so long and knowing how they are supposed to sound I know something is missing, the magic character. I need someone in Houston with some neves I can go compare them to.

 

[soapfoot]

1) Correct Input Transformers. The 10468 Mic and 31267 Line Transformer were made by Marinair and the 10468 was a stock transformer they made even before Neve came along. Eventually St. Ives got involved in the manufacture of both of them which are used in original Neve manufactuing as well. Marinair's are the preferred input transformers as they are the better sounding and Vintage 10xx series with Marinair transformers are generally worth more money. Carnhill once again makes a clone of the St. Ives version which is a particularly good clone as Carnhill bought out St. Ives and has the original speck sheets. But Carnhills do not sound like original Marinairs. Marinair being the original designers of both transformers did not give St. Ives all the details on how to make the exact transformers as stipulated by Geoff.

Not to hijack too much, but what are your thoughts on the Belclere transformers that replaced the St. Ives on some of the later 80 series (Mk II 8058 and 8068 for example)?  I know some had issues with being microphonic, but what about the timbre/sound/performance in other respects?

 

[3nity]

from my little experience i really liked the sowter or cinemag 1166 equivalent!
they are better than carnhills.

 

[tommypiper]

Not to hijack too much, but what are your thoughts on the Belclere transformers that replaced the St. Ives on some of the later 80 series (Mk II 8058 and 8068 for example)?  I know some had issues with being microphonic, but what about the timbre/sound/performance in other respects?

I believe the Belclere's are considered inferior to the St. Ives; -- and Marinairs -- definitely.

I'm don't believe that Belclere's were used in original 8058 and 8068. 

 

[tommypiper]

Yes, the 'pillowy, boomy' sound of many of the clones and repros, except AMS Neve's are increasingly recognized.

The BAE modules even have these issues right out of the box as well.

KDE makes some really valid points, and a great explanation of the transformer linage.

However there is more to it then that and the differences in transformers are swamped by the other typical issues.

Transistors are important as well, but again swamped by the typical common mistakes.


....

And exactly what might those "typical issues" and "common mistakes" be, pray tell?

 

[Aaronrash]

Heres a vocal sample of myEZ1073. I do have the EQ engaged to take some low end off, otherwise it gets way to boomy

Just figured I would share the tone I'm talking about
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/1j3cbryvrecpcwp/EZ1073.mp3

 

[soapfoot]

Not to hijack too much, but what are your thoughts on the Belclere transformers that replaced the St. Ives on some of the later 80 series (Mk II 8058 and 8068 for example)?  I know some had issues with being microphonic, but what about the timbre/sound/performance in other respects?

I believe the Belclere's are considered inferior to the St. Ives; -- and Marinairs -- definitely.

I'm don't believe that Belclere's were used in original 8058 and 8068.

According to Geoff Tanner they were-- the switchover happened around the time of the Mk II revision.

 

[desol]

Xeverything is original except its on a pcb so that's what lead me to believe wiring could make it sound that different?

Is the iron original??

Cheers

Ian

Well Ian...seeing as you worked at Neve in around that time as a design engineer?...I'd probably side with your suggestion, which seems to be what I've always thought; the transformers are a big contributing part of the sound. I'm sure there are many hit records done with 1073's, that have BC184's in them.

I'd also agree with the above statement, suggesting having a tech who is quite familiar with Neve's and the 'Neve sound' to go over the gear. People can build all the clones they want...but having the theory, knowledge and experience to properly dial things in the way they are intended to be, is another thing all together.