ruffrecords
Well-known member
KDE said:
Really? Canford is 36 years old. It started as a one man band in 1977. Neve started in 1961. I was there in the 70s and Canford's name never came up.
Cheers
Ian
Neve 1073/1084 original wiring
- Thread starter Aaronrash
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
Really? Canford is 36 years old. It started as a one man band in 1977. Neve started in 1961. I was there in the 70s and Canford's name never came up.
Cheers
Ian
Aaronrash
Well-known member
Thanks for all the info so far guys,
I could see why having a Neve tech look over it makes sense but that's not gonna happen. For 1 it's too expensive I can't afford that, that's why I built these clones. For 2 I'm allot more interested figuring out why it doesn't sound like my AMS modules instead of having a tech just fix it and say I'm good to go.
Being that the circuit is the same and most of the components are the same as well, the problem must lie in the transformers as stated by AMS and the wiring as stated by BAE. Other common clone mistakes would be as James stated, selecting a full bandwidth 3N2055 probably a NOS Motorolla since that's what was used. And using a AP to bias the power on the output, I actually have access to a AP and that's how I biased my units.
I guess I'll start with switching out the transformers. It's probably an obvious reason Avedis has his own custom transformers on the MA5 and Vintech has custom transformers as well. Lastly Geoff has custom transformers made for His products so I think it would be safe to say the regular Carnhills being sold to the public are not satisfactory. Witch must mean AMS wasn't bs'ing about having their transformers being would to a spec that Neve and only Neve have access to. Witch is strange because I've seen data sheets...
I see AMS has transformers for sell on their website. I wonder if it these are the "special" ones?
I could see why having a Neve tech look over it makes sense but that's not gonna happen. For 1 it's too expensive I can't afford that, that's why I built these clones. For 2 I'm allot more interested figuring out why it doesn't sound like my AMS modules instead of having a tech just fix it and say I'm good to go.
Being that the circuit is the same and most of the components are the same as well, the problem must lie in the transformers as stated by AMS and the wiring as stated by BAE. Other common clone mistakes would be as James stated, selecting a full bandwidth 3N2055 probably a NOS Motorolla since that's what was used. And using a AP to bias the power on the output, I actually have access to a AP and that's how I biased my units.
I guess I'll start with switching out the transformers. It's probably an obvious reason Avedis has his own custom transformers on the MA5 and Vintech has custom transformers as well. Lastly Geoff has custom transformers made for His products so I think it would be safe to say the regular Carnhills being sold to the public are not satisfactory. Witch must mean AMS wasn't bs'ing about having their transformers being would to a spec that Neve and only Neve have access to. Witch is strange because I've seen data sheets...
I see AMS has transformers for sell on their website. I wonder if it these are the "special" ones?
3nity
Well-known member
Aaron did you ever heard the EZ1084 from our friend Bluzzi?
YOu should take a look its only eq though!
Good luck!
YOu should take a look its only eq though!
Good luck!
Aaronrash
Well-known member
Hi,
Nope I haven't got a chance to check all the R values between the original schematic and the one from Neve. My EZ has all the values suggested in the schematic. I also didn't use BC electrolytics like the vintage units used but I don't think that would affect the sound very much.... However I could be wrong.
I did measure both of my units in RoomEQ Wizard when I first built them and the phase and frequency response is perfectly flat 20hz to 20khz there is a ever so slight phase shift down at 20hz but barley noticeable. I also checked for ringing with a 500hz square wave and a scope and ringing is minimal. I will post pictures
What different R values did you find?
I am going to re record samples since my EQ was engaged.
Nope I haven't got a chance to check all the R values between the original schematic and the one from Neve. My EZ has all the values suggested in the schematic. I also didn't use BC electrolytics like the vintage units used but I don't think that would affect the sound very much.... However I could be wrong.
I did measure both of my units in RoomEQ Wizard when I first built them and the phase and frequency response is perfectly flat 20hz to 20khz there is a ever so slight phase shift down at 20hz but barley noticeable. I also checked for ringing with a 500hz square wave and a scope and ringing is minimal. I will post pictures
What different R values did you find?
I am going to re record samples since my EQ was engaged.
Aaronrash
Well-known member
tommypiper
Well-known member
Aaronrash said:
Actually, I was going to mention caps.... I did not care for the BC capacitors. I understand they are close, or even the same as , many of the originals used by the N company. And everyone may have a different preference. If you want the authentic "vintage vibe" for better or worse, then you should try the BCs. I tried other modern caps and preferred all of them over the BCs. The caps in these circuits do play a role in the character, IMHO.
Geoff T has also talked about increasing the size of some of these caps to improve low end. You might look into that.
Furthermore, I notice the ez1073 kit includes all caps of one generic flavor if I'm not mistaken, for all positions, including the tants. We don't know what these caps are -- so trying other caps may make some difference.
Also, if you want to go the traditional route then you'll want to put trants in the original tant positions -- something Geoff T also recommends. And using the BCs. (I personally prefer quality electros in the tant positions, an approach favored by Neve tech John Klett.)
In any case don't overlook the capacitors. They are part of the seasoning in the sauce.
Aaronrash
Well-known member
Hey everyone,
So a little update. James, the head tech at Sound Service Electronics has helped me tremendously at getting my 1073s back on track
So a little update. James, the head tech at Sound Service Electronics has helped me tremendously at getting my 1073s back on track
rainton
Well-known member
So - what did you do James? ???
critterkllr
Well-known member
Please share.
JessJackson
Well-known member
lol, I just read this thread and its such a cliff hanger, I had to bring it back.
No one touched the subject of his psu and how he was powering his units.
I have not built a EZ1290 but I would imagine that the input is 1200ohm load.. if he wired his own stepped pot as this could load the impedance of the input transformer and result in 600ohm or 300ohm load on the mic instead of 1200 he may be used to hearing in AMS unit.
I just got done converting my vintage 1272 ( Marinair 10468 / LO 1166A / B183 w original axial tants and transistors)
Janco Burbank 12 step pot and wired it as per JLM hotrod schematic.
Recapped the electro's with panasonics
Drilled hole and Relocated the attenuator
Powered by a Power-One PSU although I've been reading that people don't enjoy this psu.
Beautiful sounding unit so far... I want to add HPF based on BA182board if it will fit
J
No one touched the subject of his psu and how he was powering his units.
I have not built a EZ1290 but I would imagine that the input is 1200ohm load.. if he wired his own stepped pot as this could load the impedance of the input transformer and result in 600ohm or 300ohm load on the mic instead of 1200 he may be used to hearing in AMS unit.
I just got done converting my vintage 1272 ( Marinair 10468 / LO 1166A / B183 w original axial tants and transistors)
Janco Burbank 12 step pot and wired it as per JLM hotrod schematic.
Recapped the electro's with panasonics
Drilled hole and Relocated the attenuator
Powered by a Power-One PSU although I've been reading that people don't enjoy this psu.
Beautiful sounding unit so far... I want to add HPF based on BA182board if it will fit
J
Aaronrash
Well-known member
EZ1290?
At the time I had 2 EZ1073 units that were fine and most people would have been happy with them but I wasn't because I had AMS reissues sitting right next to me to compare them to.
The PSU was the good old tord transformer stepped down to 24V with a regulator and a good amount of filtering, I even hooked it up to my vintageking rack and tried that. No difference in sound. I sold them and the customer loved them.
Since then I etched original card layouts and hand wired units for a friend that came out pretty nice. I even had original marinairs to put in them and he's happy with them, you can follow the build here: http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54748.0
There is something mystical about the 1073 or all class a modules for that matter that goes beyond biasing and stray capacitances. After about 6 months of phone calls with Avedis and lots of emails with Mr Tanner we still could not find an answer. Let me explain...
I have purchased about 10 1073 modules and a 1084 module form vintage king. My last unit was a demo deal and it sounded exactly like my EZ1073 units. I tried everything. Put vintage B cards in the unit, put original 1166 in the unit and it still just did not sound right. Sounded like there was a blanket over it in comparison to all my other modules. So, I sent it back to vintage king. They couldn't find anything wrong with it. They ran several test. So, just a few days ago they sent me a brand new unit from AMS Neve in witch I had to wait for but it was worth it, it sounds amazing. It doesn't sound like the EZ1073 or th demo deal reissue.
Afters years of playing with these I think It boils down to transformer variations. I have several vintage Marinairs but they don't all sound as great. Sure, there is allot of hype about vintage transformers but do you have a good sounding vintage one? The tolerances were +/- 20%
The reissues, when done correctly are unbeatable. Even next to the vintage BCM10 I use everyday loaded with vintage 1066/1073.
Also check out this thread. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/732137-2n3055-replacement-neve.html
Bottom line, unless you have a vintage console and modules to compare to... You may have never really heard a Neve the way it's supposed to be. I have and that's why I refuse to settle for less. The EZ1073 units sound great until you hear a reissue done right., or a vintage unit that's maintained and up to spec.
At the time I had 2 EZ1073 units that were fine and most people would have been happy with them but I wasn't because I had AMS reissues sitting right next to me to compare them to.
The PSU was the good old tord transformer stepped down to 24V with a regulator and a good amount of filtering, I even hooked it up to my vintageking rack and tried that. No difference in sound. I sold them and the customer loved them.
Since then I etched original card layouts and hand wired units for a friend that came out pretty nice. I even had original marinairs to put in them and he's happy with them, you can follow the build here: http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54748.0
There is something mystical about the 1073 or all class a modules for that matter that goes beyond biasing and stray capacitances. After about 6 months of phone calls with Avedis and lots of emails with Mr Tanner we still could not find an answer. Let me explain...
I have purchased about 10 1073 modules and a 1084 module form vintage king. My last unit was a demo deal and it sounded exactly like my EZ1073 units. I tried everything. Put vintage B cards in the unit, put original 1166 in the unit and it still just did not sound right. Sounded like there was a blanket over it in comparison to all my other modules. So, I sent it back to vintage king. They couldn't find anything wrong with it. They ran several test. So, just a few days ago they sent me a brand new unit from AMS Neve in witch I had to wait for but it was worth it, it sounds amazing. It doesn't sound like the EZ1073 or th demo deal reissue.
Afters years of playing with these I think It boils down to transformer variations. I have several vintage Marinairs but they don't all sound as great. Sure, there is allot of hype about vintage transformers but do you have a good sounding vintage one? The tolerances were +/- 20%
The reissues, when done correctly are unbeatable. Even next to the vintage BCM10 I use everyday loaded with vintage 1066/1073.
Also check out this thread. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/732137-2n3055-replacement-neve.html
Bottom line, unless you have a vintage console and modules to compare to... You may have never really heard a Neve the way it's supposed to be. I have and that's why I refuse to settle for less. The EZ1073 units sound great until you hear a reissue done right., or a vintage unit that's maintained and up to spec.
JessJackson
Well-known member
Sorry I meant ez1073,
Your comments actually quite interesting. I remember in 2006 I had a ams 1073dpa .. I remember buying the gtq from tanner when it first dropped and comparing it to my ams, I had the same experience that it sounded pillowy and boomy in comparison. I currently own a ams 1081 racked by vintage king and a couple of these 1272's... I use 1081's mainly at the studio's we work out of.
Im gonna see how my 1272 fairs up against the ams 1081 although they are two different sounds.
Aren't the ams recreations utilizing electrolytic caps?
J
Your comments actually quite interesting. I remember in 2006 I had a ams 1073dpa .. I remember buying the gtq from tanner when it first dropped and comparing it to my ams, I had the same experience that it sounded pillowy and boomy in comparison. I currently own a ams 1081 racked by vintage king and a couple of these 1272's... I use 1081's mainly at the studio's we work out of.
Im gonna see how my 1272 fairs up against the ams 1081 although they are two different sounds.
Aren't the ams recreations utilizing electrolytic caps?
J
Aaronrash
Well-known member
JessJackson said:
Cool,
So are you saying the DPA sounded like a blanket over it in comparison to the GTQ? If so I wouldn't be surprised, I actually read a story about a guy with 2 DPA units and one sounded like a blanket was over it. That's kinda why these are mystical to me.
Even 2 units that measure the exact same for phase, freq response and distortion will sound completely different. I know because I have gone through dozens of these modules... How does the 1081 you have sound? I would imagine pretty good!
JessJackson
Well-known member
no i actually meant that the 1073dpa sounded great and the gtq sounded wooly in comparison. I remember I returned the GTQ within days of purchase.
the 1081 sounds nice but has pops and crackles when inserting the EQ. every things on one board in this pre, its not like the 1073 so I'm gonna have to track down the bad capacitor.
AMS said i could send it in for repair but I know its just one cap, i can hear it.
The 1272 sounds amazing though!... just waiting on my scope to arrive so i can bias it properly.
the 1081 sounds nice but has pops and crackles when inserting the EQ. every things on one board in this pre, its not like the 1073 so I'm gonna have to track down the bad capacitor.
AMS said i could send it in for repair but I know its just one cap, i can hear it.
The 1272 sounds amazing though!... just waiting on my scope to arrive so i can bias it properly.
Kid Squid
Well-known member
Possibly the DEF-STAN 61-12 colour code ?
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