New stuff, only 60 years late

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Aha, first U-turn back to the mixing console :)

In the .37 drawings I bought, a dissapointingly low number of dimensional drawings is included: one. It shows the earth connection label, picture 1. Haha haha! Bummer.

There's a few photos in the internet of the REDD.37 and .51 opened up, and two Vintage King sales videos. These proved to be crucial in my reverse engineering. Sheet metal wise, the two types of desk are quite different, and I decided to stay as close as I can to the .37.

The three units (brilliantly called 'Left Wing', 'Centre Section' and 'Right Wing') I will make out of aluminum, welded together here & there, screwed together in other places. The most challenging parts are the 3 top plates, the 'Engraved Panels'. I need to CNC-engrave them, paint them Battleship Grey and then fill the engraved characters and lines with paint. Never done that, but I'm looking forward to it.

The next items that are quite a challenge are the racks where the V72 amps slide in, picture 2. I need them as 7-slotters. Sometimes they pop up on eBay as S67 racks, but have not been succesful at scratching one under my nails.

The back panels, with all the mounting holes, I hope to CNC as well.

And then, there is that enormous collection of black labels. This is white-behind-black name plate plastic, just as you will find next to your neighbour's door bell. Again, CNC, because there are some really wonderful symbols to engrave (picture 3).
I'll have a T-shirt with that :) !

When comparing that with the original, you can see I've greatly reduced the number of Siemens 3-pole 'U-links' (without losing too much REDD.37-functionality), but those sockets are so expensive that it is still quite an investment.

I will be posting more about the desk in June, carefully choosing what to show, not breaching EMI copyright.

regards,

mart
No, first U-link back to the task at hand :D
 
Aha, first U-turn back to the mixing console :)

In the .37 drawings I bought, a dissapointingly low number of dimensional drawings is included: one. It shows the earth connection label, picture 1. Haha haha! Bummer.

There's a few photos in the internet of the REDD.37 and .51 opened up, and two Vintage King sales videos. These proved to be crucial in my reverse engineering. Sheet metal wise, the two types of desk are quite different, and I decided to stay as close as I can to the .37.


The three units (brilliantly called 'Left Wing', 'Centre Section' and 'Right Wing') I will make out of aluminum, welded together here & there, screwed together in other places. The most challenging parts are the 3 top plates, the 'Engraved Panels'. I need to CNC-engrave them, paint them Battleship Grey and then fill the engraved characters and lines with paint. Never done that, but I'm looking forward to it.
Frontpanel Design in Germany is great!
The next items that are quite a challenge are the racks where the V72 amps slide in, picture 2. I need them as 7-slotters. Sometimes they pop up on eBay as S67 racks, but have not been succesful at scratching one under my nails.
Never seen 7 slot ones, only 5 and 11.
The back panels, with all the mounting holes, I hope to CNC as well.

And then, there is that enormous collection of black labels. This is white-behind-black name plate plastic, just as you will find next to your neighbour's door bell. Again, CNC, because there are some really wonderful symbols to engrave (picture 3).
I'll have a T-shirt with that :) !

ah yes, the traffolyte badges. Had made.
When comparing that with the original, you can see I've greatly reduced the number of Siemens 3-pole 'U-links' (without losing too much REDD.37-functionality), but those sockets are so expensive that it is still quite an investment.

I will be posting more about the desk in June, carefully choosing what to show, not breaching EMI copyright.

regards,

mart
Yes, I'll just PM you.

Best/
Tom
 
Hello,

This week is about the Mixer. I call it a .27 since its functionality and complexity is to be found inbetween a REDD.17 and the REDD.37/51.

I started out with collecting inforomation and pictures on the internet. That was about 2 years ago. I came to understand that the REDD.17 was from Germany and the REDD.37 was already a Britisch desk.

Not that I needed any, but the fact that the EMI-engineer (Peter Burkowitz) who designed the REDD.17 had been doing that in my very hometown (Köln, Germany) was a quite a morale booster. I hopped on my bike and found that the studio part of the complex still existed and was also being used as such. Great. There were even some traces of former EMI activity:

001 EMI Cologne.jpg

002.jpg

003.jpg

I found out there was an extensive 2011 interview with Burkowitz about his carreer, called 'Lebensbilanz: 80 Jahre Klangaufzeichnung', © 2012 by Polzer Media Group GmbH (interviews by F. Engel, G. Kuper, F. Bell und J. Polzer), ISBN: 978-3-934535-30-5. For sale as pdf. Language: German.

On page 88, the chapter about EMI/Electrola Köln starts. He explains that, in 1953, in order to have modern equipment, a studio or record company had to build it themselves. Since a lot of recording of classic music was done on location, he deviced a portable 3-unit set, that 'could be carried by a few strong young men and put together to form a desk.' He mentions receiving a Gebrauchsmuster for it, which indeed and to my surprise, can be found online:

004 gebrauchsmuster.jpg

Hm, not quite a REDD.17, I hear you think. 'The folks from London' asked him if he could redo his trick utilising the new-and-very-small V72-series amps. He did, and the result was the REDD.17, all of them built by ENB Schimon in Berlin. ENB Schimon was the only company in Germany who ever used Siemens Elevator push buttons for the talk-back circuits. Another example of that habit can be found at Funkstunde.com:

005 enb-desk of funkstunde.com.jpg

It is funny to see those push-buttons reappear on the TG12345 desks :)

On page 98, Burkowitz can be seen behind his own creation at Toerag, in 2008:

006 redd.17 mit peter burkowitz.jpg

Page 100 held a surprise for me: the REDD.37 was also thought through, planned and engineered here in Köln, by Burkowitz. Wow!

Some more searching 'redd.37 manual' on the internet suddenly revealed an actual manual. 2.8 kg of drawing. For Sale! Not cheap, but I didn't hesitate for a second. This changed my project quite a bit. Before this purchase I was trying to establish a very GOOD-LOOKING 3-unit REDD-inspired desk (with Tuchels, Paintons, etc), with some self-designed electronics of no importance under the bonnet. Suddenly, I had it all. All electrical info required to build it 1 on 1. No dimensional info, that must be said, but soon someone would save me.

Upon studying the plans, I noticed that the two bottom units were very 'under-used': double-width VU-drivers, some spare amps, lots of room for never-materialised extensions, etc. I also noticed that all those typical German parts, although to be found right here in Germany, were not cheap at all: a Tuchel 3-pole chassis socket: 5 euro, a Tuchel 30-pole plug: 6 euro, a Tuchel 12-pole plug: 5 euro, rotary switches: 7 to 20 euro, Siemens 'U-Link' sockets: 6 euro each, cable plugs for them: 17 euro, etc, etc, not to mention V72 amps, signal transfomers, Painton faders or tone control coils.

If I were to pull this off, I would have to reduce. Without losing the character and ending up right in the middle of a .37 (which I find too crowded) and a .17 (which sports a refreshingly empty surface).
Here's what I reduced. I ditched the pre-fader/post-fader knobs, I ditched the 4B and 5B Mic inputs and the associated controls, ditched the entire circuit to derive a Mono mix (knobs on the front of the Centre Section), I combined some non-audio V-7x stuff like VU-meters in single-width dual channel units (16-pole Tuchels instead of 12-pole), I simplified the Echo channels a bit, and I went..
from 48 V-7x amp SLOTS to 28,
from approx. 30 V-72 Amps to 24,
from 5 basic units to 3,
from 14 Paintons to 12,
from 82 Tuchel sockets to 33,
from 142 Rotary controls to 72,
from 144 'U-Links' to 68.

The following shows a bit of my resulting design. I also reduced the overall width a bit since the .37 just feld too wide.

007.jpg

008.jpg

009.jpg

All well, but I was still looking at the build-time and -cost of all those self-built V72-clones, BEFORE any sensible testing could take place. Not good. My solution is to go 'temporarily OpAmperized': I will start all V72 Amps as fixed gain Opamp units, and upgrade one or two every birthday :) :

010 amp approach.jpg

And then, roughly last spring, I remembered I had a record cutter to drive, so I acquinted myself with mastering controls. I discovered that EMI had done the same. Elliptic EQ, monofy the Bass content not to let needle jump. That stuff. The drawings show that on the 'studio 1' REDD.37, the famous Shuffler circuit was REPLACED by a Vertical Bass Cut circuit on 14th of March 1962 (the addition to the part list was made by Len Page himself). Both being knobless circuits, such a change can go largely unnoticed, but in the photo below you can see that someone used black nail polish and Dymoed 'VBC'. Probably Len Page again:

011 shuffler & VBC.jpg

So there I was, august 2021, looking at a 3-item part list for a 200 ohm VBC, but without schematic. At this point in time, I started to teach myself how to calculate bridged T-pad attenuators. Some of the available .37-control info served as 'correct answer' for my efforts. With this skill, I could do a VBC. Not that mine uses the parts Len Page typed, but hey, on paper, it works. And I could give it controls: 1) how much of it (in 2 or 3 dB steps) and with what slope, 6dB or 12 dB. I also threw an extra 'Spreader' at the Mastering section, coming to a desk-total of 75 rotary controls. Since I absolutly loved that single ridiculosly big rotary knob smack in the middle of the .17 desk, but couldn't have it on a 4-output mixer, I decided to make the new Spreader my 'big rotary control in the middle'.

More to follow for sure.

kindest regards,

Mart
 
Last edited:
Hello!

Today is about the Cutter. It is entirely self-designed, so we'll have to wait and see if it is any good. But hey, no guts - no glory.

Essentially, the cutter I'm designing produces so-called Dubs, which are directly playable. For now, the only thing this system needs to cut are 3 minute 7” 45 rpm singles at 0 dB, in stereo or mono. And you know what? One day after I'm done thinking that up, it turns out there's even someone nearby who makes 7" blanks! This world is full of surprises.

These were the things I learned on my first Lathe Trolls forum visits, last year:

1. it should be cut, not embossed. Embossed is noisy, has a hollow sound and is lower in volume.
2. do it in stereo, not mono.
3. use feedback cutter heads.
4. clean the needle with aceton (dissolves plastic, not diamond)
5. de-static the blank disc with an ioniser.
6. you need a heat lamp to make the blank easier to cut. And a hand-held temperature meter.
7. groove lead-in & lead-out must be designed-in by me, somehow.
8. the PVC blank should be treated with a bit of Turtle Wax to get static down.
9. a low-noise vacuum system is needed to suck away the 'chip'.

Leading to these specifications:

cutter-specs.jpg

With information from various directions, I was slowly putting together my design for it all:

principe-schema 01.jpg

At some point, I read about a certain Flo Kaufmann and his Caruso head. It turned out that the Caruso head itself was not that well documented (it is for sale, after all), but the ancillary equipment was very well documented. It was a complete system, with specs, preamps, connections, part lists and procedures. Great! Cutter head remains on the to-do list.

Here's what I've engineered so far:

desing.jpg

The whole head group (including feed motor) can swivel up around the main axis, allowing for blanks to be put in and taken out. When it comes down again, the diamand always rests a few millimeters above the blank. I can then lower it those last millimeters using the 'manual drop down' lever. It will be held down securely by an electromagnetic solenoid. One could say: 'one movement, divided in 3 pieces..!'

More to follow, for sure.

mart
 
Last edited:
Hello again,

The engravings for the top panels of the REDD.27 mixer are done, and I thought you might like to see it.
I've put quite some effort in getting the characters as EMI as I could, and I'm quite happy with how they turned out.

engraved panels done sm.jpg

Have fun,

Mart
 

Attachments

  • engraved panels done.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 1
Last edited:
And here are two overall impressions. As you can see, I'm still pondering over the 'flat top / slanted top' question. What do you think?

27 impression flat top.jpg

27 impression slanted top.jpg

M
 
Love it. I guess we're all waiting to see the actual engraved tops...
I vote for slanted.
Don't know where you are located, but I might be able to help if you need cast parts (bronze or aluminium) and basic machining. I can even convert 3D objects to bronze if need be (via 3D print).

Happy tinkering, Viggo
 
Ahh, it's more low-tech (and cheaper). I do a FFM print with uncolored filament to prevent ashes in the mould, seal it with wax, add sprues, make a regular plaster or ceramic shell mould, bake out the PLA and pour the metal. It works quite well.
 
Ahh, it's more low-tech (and cheaper). I do a FFM print with uncolored filament to prevent ashes in the mould, seal it with wax, add sprues, make a regular plaster or ceramic shell mould, bake out the PLA and pour the metal. It works quite well.
Thanks for the explanation. A modern version of sand-casting. When you say "bake out the PLA", does it melt and flow or does it sublimate?
 
It's basically a modern version of "cire-perdue" or "lost wax".
I've never opened a half-baked mold to investigate, but I presume the PLA gets liquid first (like wax) at about 200C, and then sublimates or vaporizes somewhere on the way to 650C or 900C depending on which method...
Brilliant this. I teach this kind of manufacturing stuff to industrial design students - lovely to see you take over :)
One Painton Quadrant Fader is the only thing I have a cast-need for. But I'll probably improvise with machining - their enclosure is not that difficult. Just strange.

IMG_0287.JPG
 
Hello,

I've cut and mounted the new scales for the Ernest Turner VU-meters. Here's how I did it.
After mounting the scales, I had to adjust the needle to the right height, since the scales are a bit thicker than the original Turner scales.
The last picture, outside, is the meter enclosures receiving a little parafin treatment to bring back the bakelite shine again.

More to follow, for sure.

M
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2926.JPG
    IMG_2926.JPG
    561.2 KB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2927.JPG
    IMG_2927.JPG
    622.9 KB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2928.JPG
    IMG_2928.JPG
    722.3 KB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2930.JPG
    IMG_2930.JPG
    818.2 KB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2931.JPG
    IMG_2931.JPG
    1.7 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2932.JPG
    IMG_2932.JPG
    1.3 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2934.JPG
    IMG_2934.JPG
    1.3 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2935.JPG
    IMG_2935.JPG
    1.3 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2936.JPG
    IMG_2936.JPG
    1.3 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2937.JPG
    IMG_2937.JPG
    1.2 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2938.JPG
    IMG_2938.JPG
    1.1 MB · Views: 0
  • IMG_2946.JPG
    IMG_2946.JPG
    3 MB · Views: 0
I notice now, looking at my own pictures, that the print of the VU-text is a bit hairy. Luckily, it is not noticable with the naked eye.
 
Last edited:
Mmm Bakelite rocks.

The Painton casing is most likely die cast, pressure cast in steel molds. Very high quality.
A cool thing about going via 3D-print is the ability to compensate for the shrinking of the metal.
If you were to make a silicone-wax-aluminium proces on that part, you'd end up with a part that looks good but is 5-6% too small.. (The wax shrinks too).

I'm excited to see the cutting mechanism come into shapes and forms...
 
Back
Top