New way of payment: Bitcoin

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Phrazemaster said:
The unsettling aspect of all this to me is the fact that a bitcoin is a digital creation; it has no real counterpart in life. IE you can't hold a bitcoin (yes I'm aware there was a guy creating actual bitcoins but that's a digression).
Yup, at best a variant digital payment system. but IMO oversold as an alternate currency or worse yet as a hedge against sovereign currencies.
In other words, it's fiat money on steroids. It doesn't exist except as a concept or 0s/1s on a computer.
Bordering on a pyramid or ponzi scheme, where early adopters profit nicely while late comers will be left holding the bag (or bits). They argue that the total number ever made will be limited so future value will appreciate, but this assumes consistent growing demand. There is no fundamental reason for this, and the people behind bitcoin are probably quietly counting their "real" money that they exchanged bitcoins for. 
This is also at the heart of our current monetary system - banks lend out many times more money than they actually have (Fractional Reserve Lending) which again is built on "air" if you will.
Yes, fractional reserve banking is based on a confidence game of sorts, where depositors "trust" that they can get their money back from banks on demand. This is true as long as they all don't want it back at the same time. We saw what can happen, like in Cyprus when there is a run on the banks and not enough money in the till.

There is a real benefit from fractional reserve banking, where a finite amount of capital gets multiplied several times and can generate faster economic growth from the lending activity, than if all 100% was sitting in bank vaults doing nothing. The faster economic growth is a double edged sword, while growth is generally good, the higher rate of growth comes with increased volatility, so we see boom/bust cycles. Even this is not all bad as capitalism utilizes "creative destruction" to remove dead wood, economically weak players from the private sector to be replaced by new stronger players. (Government bail-outs interfere with this creative destruction keeping weak players alive. The government recently took a $10B loss selling off the last of their GM stock. Since the government does not have their own money we taxpayers lost the $10B on GM).

Central banks have tried to manage these boom/bust cycles, and have enjoyed the appearance of limited success modulating the interest rate of this fractional reserve lending, to heat or cool the economy. My opinion is that they are drinking too much of their own kool aid and their ability to micro manage growth is an illusion. 
The ability to trade "nothing" and make a profit as the middleman has been going on for ages, and it's one of the great sources of corruption of the entire financial system.
I am not sure exactly what trading nothing is. The last major economic collapse that we are still recovering from was caused by selling "stuff" (bundled low quality mortgages) that clearly were not worth as much as they were represented to be. As long as there was an adequate supply of new fools to sell the funny investment to the music played on. but as happens with all bubbles, the music stops eventually. 
I realize bitcoins are made by the fringe, the "rebels" who want to create something new, but really it's not new at all - it's just a better way to manipulate "air" money and control people.
I am not sure about the motives behind bitcoin. I suspect it is a very profitable enterprise for the secretive founders.
Whatever happened to trading something of VALUE?

Sigh.
The old saying that you should only buy things that hurt when you drop them on your foot has some resonance. Commodities should be a no brainer, but in my experience fluctuations in the value of our home currency can upset commodity valuations.

I remain hopeful that our central bankers are smarter than they look, and we will find out in the next few years. Just like fractional reserve banking contributes to faster economic growth (generally a good thing), modest currency inflation goes hand in hand with managing this delicate if slightly chaotic relationship. Since I put a small fraction (1%) of my investment portfolio in gold as a kind of doomsday hedge against the dollar's value, I have seen the price of gold drop 36.6% (I just looked at it). The good news for me, is that the other 99% of my portfolio in dollars has gone up.

A couple elephants in the room that don't seem to get much notice in the media is A) our slow/low inflation. Deflation that can trigger a deflationary spiral could be an even worse economic situation than our current lethargic low growth. It is harder to measure actual inflation as the government has changed their definition for how it is officially measured and often reverse out volatile factors (like energy costs). B) the other elephant is the size of Bernanke's (soon to be Yellin's) purchased debt portfolio. The fed has been buying some $85B a month of new debt to keep bond rates artificially low. Bernanke's last official announcement was that he has started the dreaded "tapering" reducing the monthly buying to $75B. While the market has swooned in the past at any mention of tapering, this time the move was adequately telegraphed and markets actually rallied on the news. But what nobody is thinking about is the $4.5T of this debt on the Fed's balance sheet that they ultimately need to unload (for perspective our annual budget deficit is running around $1T, our total sovereign debt is around $16T, and our total GDP for 2012 was $15.6T.)  So far they have been able to get away with this extraordinary monetary experiment because the velocity (how fast money changes hands) in the economy is still unusually slow, but this next couple years will be interesting. Hopefully the two elephants in room are not a male and female, which could result in more economic elephants.  ;D

JR

PS: Speaking of something for nothing, the EC is trying again to implement a transaction tax. Looking for ways to raise revenue is what bureaucrats do, but this is a direct tax on economic activity so will slow economic activity. I wish these politicians would study some economics, particularly unintended consequences from economic incentives. The good news is this was delayed again, because EU banks are still hurting to much that they require all the focus now, but wait for it, it's coming.  :'(
 
Phrazemaster said:
The unsettling aspect of all this to me is the fact that a bitcoin is a digital creation; it has no real counterpart in life. IE you can't hold a bitcoin (yes I'm aware there was a guy creating actual bitcoins but that's a digression).

In other words, it's fiat money on steroids. It doesn't exist except as a concept or 0s/1s on a computer.

This is also at the heart of our current monetary system - banks lend out many times more money than they actually have (Fractional Reserve Lending) which again is built on "air" if you will.

The ability to trade "nothing" and make a profit as the middleman has been going on for ages, and it's one of the great sources of corruption of the entire financial system. I realize bitcoins are made by the fringe, the "rebels" who want to create something new, but really it's not new at all - it's just a better way to manipulate "air" money and control people.

Whatever happened to trading something of VALUE?

Sigh.

It depends on how you want to look at it.  I agree that bitcoin is entirely digital; there's nothing tangible about it.  You're also correct to point out that that is true of almost all money these days. It exists only in computers for the most part.

But what does value does bitcoin have beyond its monetary value.  That's the interesting question for me.  I can see why people think that it was invented purely to make the inventor (and possibly early adopters) more 'real' money.  But I don't go for that to be honest.  Even if it's true, I don't think that is particularly important.

I think that bitcoin's worth is that it has taken the first small step towards a different system.  Thanks to publicity in the media, even my mother and father know about bitcoins though they may not understand them yet.  The publicity so far may not be great (boom and bust, get rich quick, idiots losing a lot of money quickly by losing their USB stick / hard drive) but the idea of an alternative to national currencies has been placed in peoples' minds.  I doubt whether years down the line bitcoin will exist, or will be an important factor in economics.  But I do think that today, bitcoin could be the first hint towards a new paradigm in the way that money is used.
 
Script said:
Any business accepting Bitcoins as payment still interested in giving discounts now?

Actually, yes since you get more bitcoins for your sale, regardless that btc is only up 5577% instead of 11324%..this year.  :eek:

JohnRoberts said:
I remain hopeful that our central bankers are smarter than they look......

;D
Your central bankers are very smart...and greedy though..because of your hope.

mr. bitcoin cares only that the x number you send to someones adress, will be there, and vice-verca.
Just a global crypted debet/credit system. And that makes it damn cold democratic invention.
 
Andy Peters said:
Phrazemaster said:
Whatever happened to trading something of VALUE?

Well, there was that guy who bought a Tesla sports car with bitcoins. I think he wins :)

-a
But not a good example of what a new "money" should be. Looks more like a planetary lotto to me. And we all know who the real winner is.
 
pasi_k said:
Script said:
Any business accepting Bitcoins as payment still interested in giving discounts now?

Actually, yes since you get more bitcoins for your sale, regardless that btc is only up 5577% instead of 11324%..this year.  :eek:

Well, this sounds a bit like magic! Maybe not, but it would only work (as a payment system in any business model, corporate or private) if said business had converted all or part of their Bitcoins they accepted as payment to a fiat currency shortly before panic sales set in. If they had held onto all their Bitcoins, said business would have a loss of 50% in their books for those latest sales -- ouch! Of course, it's a question of how much risk a business is willing to accept. And if said business is convinced that Bitcoins follow a trajectory of unlimited/accellerated growth until 2040 (or whenever), I'd said that this business was active in two fields: (1) selling items and (2) classic currency speculation.

Also, I'm not so sure that the volatility of the stock markets has any effect on the value of Bitcoins at all. Actually, for now, I'd rather claim it's the other way round. I have no proof, but I tend to believe that a lot of (private, corporate and maybe even some governments') investments in Cyprus were cashed in and secretly left the country as Bitcoins shortly before/while accounts were frozen there. Sounds like conspiracy? Well, a quick glance at the indexes...

So far, Bitcoins hasn't taught me anything. I think Bitcoins follow the mechanisms of a classic  bubble (somewhat reminiscent in drive of the DOTcom bubble) and mirror some of the same mechanisms that other "financial products" do. The only difference is that Bitcoins are not (strictly) regulated (yet) and therefore highly volatile, and that nobody can possibly know what the intrinsic value of a Bitcoin really is (unlike company shares: fundamental analysis). But granted, Bitcoins might be more democratic in so far as this high-risk speculation playground is really open to anybody and their children (not just banksters) -- a playground that is (as of now) clearly fuelled by the desire to get rich quickly without having to do much (classic euphoria).

Let's not forget what the origins of the latest series of "crises" really are: the massive deregulation of the financial sector a couple of years before the Lehman shock. And with it came the rapid emergence of a new kind of financial products (actually the fastest growing sector in modern finances), namely derivatives -- i.e. the "gambling game" or what Warren B. once dubbed "financial weapons of mass destruction". America is now swinging back, regulating it's banks rigorously and for a good reason; Europe on the other hand is totally lagging behind in this respect (I wouldn't mind there being a tax on financial transactions, but "airy" derivatives should be taxed much much higher than shares, not the other way round); and Japan, well, Japan has always been and continues to be a financially secluded island of sorts. But then again, last Wednesday a Japanese pension fund fraudster got 15 years in jail (very little, if you asked me, for defrauding the equivalent of $240M). However, derivatives are still here and the recent massive decline in the gold price is a mix between a bubble that burst, mining field licences getting more expensive and, I believe, massive derivative-based bets that pay out if the gold prices falls even further.

I am not surprised that anger and frustration with banks, some evil-spirited investment bankers and maybe even the entire current financial system can lure people into wishing there was an alternative -- but I don't think that it is Bitcoins. History and system theory tell us that any given system can only be changed by working from within that system and never from the outside (the American Revolution is no exception, actually no revolution is for that matter). If Bitcoins are here to stay, they maybe will work as a new way of payment (highly volatile though until they are regulated). However, personally, I'd rather wish banks finally had the courage to offer (international) money transfers entirely free of charge -- I don't see a reason why they couldn't, cos most of them operate globally anyway. They don't because they don't want to -- instead they are thinking about Bitcoin ETFs  :eek:

[rant, preach, burp!]

BTW, I no longer need schematics for an EMP generator to blitzbuff my annoying neighbour's smartphone -- the Chinese took care of that ;) ;) ;) But now I feel bad and pity for him -- I should make peace and invite him over for dinner.
 
Script said:
History and system theory tell us that any given system can only be changed by working from within that system and never from the outside (the American Revolution is no exception, actually no revolution is for that matter).
Can you explain this? It would seem that destroying an old system and creating a new one is not only changing that system but creating a new one.

I will give you, we've managed set up the exact same system again, only worse x 1000 - taxation without representation, etc. Maybe you mean going within ourselves? This is getting deep! Where's my popcorn?
 
Bitcoin seems to not be immune from hackers...

it seems millions have been stolen from exchanges exploiting a transaction malleability exploit. (whatever that is.)

Do you know where your bitcoins are?

JR
 
I am convinced now that I'm on the safe side not owning bitcoins. Didn't a Japanese online exchange platform close down for a day recently, causing the index to roller-coaster again? Very vulnerable.

Anyway, sorry for not replying concerning "revolution". I had my own revolution lately: she's six weeks old now, healthy and cute as can be. I am a bit of a latecomer in that respect, but it's not too late yet to climb trees with her when she grows a bit older :)

Back to Revolutions:
I'd say the most basic definition of revolution is not working outside the system but working against the system. But then again, there are many different definitions of revolution (from hard to soft), and today the term is used almost indiscriminately and in many fields, ranging from politics to sociology, technology, ecology etc etc). To my understanding, historically, the American Rev. is probably the only real "hard" revolution. And one reason why it was so successful probably is because it happened on a "new" continent, while the suppressors lived across the ocean.

What's the aim of a revolution? Well, not destruction in itself but the establishment of a better system. Revolution means "turn around" -- basically: those people who formerly had no power get into power. And this is what happened in the American Revolution. However, the American Constitution was not created out of nothing -- actually, many parts of it can be traced back to political, economic and social discourses and thinkers of the time. This is what I mean by saying that a revolution is successful when it works from within a system. Well, [no] "taxation" [without] "representation" -- two terms that are per se linked to the or a system, no? [I'm not American, but in general I'd agree with what's written here:
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=49985.40]

Anyway, there's yet another definition of revolution (from Ancient Greece or Ancient China, I forgot), one that sees the aim of a revolution in the suppressed people reminding its leaders of fundamental virtues -- cos something went seriously wrong (corruption, arbitrariness, things got out of bound etc). So basically it's a call for restoring the well-being of the people (usually without a change in leadership).

Now, if bitcoins claims to be a revolution -- which one is it? Destruction? Anarchy? The poor and suppressed claiming wealth and power? Robin Hood hackers ripping of the rich and affluent? A reminder and an attempt to restore virtue in politics and finances? The dream of "getting rich quickly" come true? The end of capitalist society? Well, I still haven't heard any of the inventors and the people more deeply involved in the "system of Bitcoin" enlightening us on this.


Some final thoughts:

Bitcoins claim to be a deflationary system, cos the amount of Bitcoins is "strictly" limited. The smallest unit of a Bitcoin is called a "Satoshi" (1/100,000,000 BTC or 0.00000001 BTC). All very fine so far, but also metaphysical in nature, cos who gives me the guarantee that one day there won't be a Satoshi cent? Well, it really doesn't matter where we add the 0's -- the result is the same.

Bitcoins hasn't taught me anything yet except maybe that, despite all the quantitative easing going on around the world, most fiat currencies seem comparatively stable (hmm, don't get me started on the yen, very serious rant alarm ;) ). I really don't care what a currency is called: yen, euro, dollars, drachmae, bitcoin, gold nuggest, dhong, tin foil, schlong, mule ear... All I need to know is what its purchasing power is, how much a commodity is worth and thus costs, and that exchange rates are relatively stable from one day to the next.

Money is about power, while the stock market circus is about psychology.

The stock markets dropped 7 percent or so at the end of January and are now kind of up again. What do I have to read? Newspaper guys immediately conjuring up metaphors of 1929 again. That's a very sick kind of psychology. Don't fall for it.

I tend to believe that there are a few people around who'd really love to see us all poor and these people know how to play the media (and even governments). Question is: who are they?

Bitcoins as "a way of payment" and Bitcoins as an "investment" are two entirely different things.

I don't need Bitcoins to boycott a bank that offers crappy services. And I don't shy away from telling people across the counter what I think of the company they work for (strictly non-personal attack).

I'm not rich, but I wouldn't consider myself poor either (as in Third World countryside populace). All I try to do is secure my livelihood and hopefully be able to lead an independent life in old age. I wouldn't want my lovely baby daughter (or anyone else for that matter) to pay all and everything for me when I'm old.

But, hey, I really should consider throwing my old-age pension into Bitcoins. Either I make a fortune quickly and democratically and then will laugh at you all, or loose everything and then you people will pay for me when I'm old -- so I can't really lose, can I? ;) Oh, wait a second, isn't this kind of thinking a little sick too...

Actually, I should really learn about how to brew beer. End of barter? No, but probably better flavour :) Please, anyone, teach me how to DIY beer. Any link appreciated.

 
I feel some of the confusion surrounding Bitcoin is the mislabeling of it as, "digital currency".  Consider it a digital commodity, an inedible digital bean. Facebook is a digital bean.  MySpace was once a valuable bean…until it wasn't. :eek:
 
Script said:
Actually, I should really learn about how to brew beer. End of barter? No, but probably better flavour :) Please, anyone, teach me how to DIY beer. Any link appreciated.
I doubt it would be very practical to to ship beer making supplies across the Pacific ocean. I buy my supplies from
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/  located in CA...

Maybe you need to start a home brewing supplies business in Japan.

=====

Bitcoin touts themselves an "alternate" currency that is better than other currencies. That is a significant claim that is not about design as much as who or what is behind that currency. Bitcoin has stumbled due to flaws in that design (perhaps fixable) but still remains secretive about the "who" is behind it.

The yen is interesting recently as Abe has openly campaigned to inflate that currency trying to ignite expansion of the Japanese economy.  For currency watchers this is an interesting (scary?) time as these major experiments in monetary policy play out. The US is trying to unwind their own experiment in bond buying, that is rippling through world markets. Good luck to us all.

------
A perhaps amusing observation about currency inflation. Our President recently floated a retirement savings plan for low income workers called MyRA or something like that.. IIRC he was going to guarantee a 1.5% return over time. Meanwhile our central bankers target higher annual inflation rates than that. I guess low income workers are not expected to be very savvy about such things. It's slightly better than burying your money in the back yard but only slightly.

JR

 
Mt Gox bitcoin exchange is offline and ????

And... nothing, no? Same kind of news as always.

The US (federal bank?/government?) recently defined Bitcoins as a "currency". Europe defined it as a "resource" -- both are first attempts toward regulation. I guess the EU chairmen heard that Bitcoins involved "mining", so it must be something like iron ore or gold ;) "Oi, Mary, where's me shovel, damnit?"

Bitcoins = digital  VERSUS  fiat currencies = on paper/in computers. I really don't see much of a difference.

In ancient times, people used an abacus, some sort of ink and papyrus; then came mechanical calulators, pencils and paper; then punch-card calculators, ball-pens and paper; then pocket calulators with memory, fancy pens and paper; then computers with harddrives and printers; finally smartphones with apps and accessories -- it's just a shift in technology. "Oi, Mary, ain't you've seen me damn balance sheet papers nowhere?"

*To JR: Thanks for the link to DIY beer brewing supplies the other day :) Gives me a good idea about what'd be needed to get started. Not sure about a business though, I think J-country can be a bit peculiar about imports. Beer kits should be fine but there sure must be something like that here.
 
Script said:
Mt Gox bitcoin exchange is offline and ????

And... nothing, no? Same kind of news as always.
It seems like there was some recent news wrt Mt Gox..  They were hacked a couple weeks ago and now there are questions about if there is any there left there.
The US (federal bank?/government?) recently defined Bitcoins as a "currency". Europe defined it as a "resource" -- both are first attempts toward regulation. I guess the EU chairmen heard that Bitcoins involved "mining", so it must be something like iron ore or gold ;) "Oi, Mary, where's me shovel, damnit?"

Bitcoins = digital  VERSUS  fiat currencies = on paper/in computers. I really don't see much of a difference.
The difference is all about the backing of any given currency.  Since we went off the gold standard in the '70s the USD has been a "trust me" kind of currency.  ::) Even if I have limited trust in my central bankers to preserve my currency's value, I have no idea about who or what is behind the bitcoin's value? They have a cute, can't lose story, but I've heard my share of those before. This Mt Gox melt down seems like an important event to watch to see how it gets resolved or doesn't, to predict the safety of using bitcoin as a store of value. 
In ancient times, people used an abacus, some sort of ink and papyrus; then came mechanical calulators, pencils and paper; then punch-card calculators, ball-pens and paper; then pocket calulators with memory, fancy pens and paper; then computers with harddrives and printers; finally smartphones with apps and accessories -- it's just a shift in technology. "Oi, Mary, ain't you've seen me damn balance sheet papers nowhere?"
Shift came several decades ago when currencies lost hard backing, and since then it has been a tug of war, confidence game between the worlds central bankers.
*To JR: Thanks for the link to DIY beer brewing supplies the other day :) Gives me a good idea about what'd be needed to get started. Not sure about a business though, I think J-country can be a bit peculiar about imports. Beer kits should be fine but there sure must be something like that here.
Yes, Japan likes their beer (Kirin, Ashai, etc), while I do not know about DIY beer making. I find it a very enjoyable hobby.  ;D ;D

JR

PS: I have a tiny position in gold that should be a hedge against currency devaluation and my investment in that gold is losing money. (so far.. and that is OK, kind of like a life preserver I'd rather not need to use).  :eek:
 
Ethan said:
I feel some of the confusion surrounding Bitcoin is the mislabeling of it as, "digital currency".  Consider it a digital commodity, an inedible digital bean. Facebook is a digital bean.  MySpace was once a valuable bean…until it wasn't. :eek:

The thing about beans is they can easily be turned into poop. 
 
dandeurloo said:
Ethan said:
I feel some of the confusion surrounding Bitcoin is the mislabeling of it as, "digital currency".  Consider it a digital commodity, an inedible digital bean. Facebook is a digital bean.  MySpace was once a valuable bean…until it wasn't. :eek:

The thing about beans is they can easily be turned into poop.

And farts!
Best,
Bruno2000
 
Speaking of currency... The Senate asked Janet Yellin about regulating Bitcoins, and she said they need to pass a law if they want that...

Speaking of currency, the Chinese Yuan has reversed direction. It was on a slow gradual appreciation (getting stronger) for the last few years in response to the world complaining about them artificially setting the exchange rate too low.  It is unclear if this reversal indicated that the Chinese are trying to support their economy by boosting exports, or relaxing their price fixing controls and the change is in response to actual market forces.

If the latter and they are willing to allow the yuan to float this telegraphs a threat to the dollar as reserve currency. If the former we can continue our profligate borrowing for more years to come. It is only a matter of time before China becomes the largest world economy. We need to take this seriously (along with my list of other things we are not adequately concerned about).

Interesting times. People are all excited about the bitcoin but it is chump change in the world currency market.

JR
 
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