OCC Copper wire, or any other wires??

[thermionic]

Thanks for putting me straight Ole, I've never had any trouble with cable so there are some obvious gaps in my knowledge. The only time I have had trouble was with pre-fab cable, therefore I've made my own since I was a kid.

I've trotted this story out many times now: A "record dealer" associate complained when I rigged up a preamp at my studio with a prefab cable (I have one or two prefab for sidechains / mod etc), so I rigged up a decent OFC with bal XLRs but left the prefab connected. I turned the music back on through the prefab but with an extra dB - "ah that's much better, we can enjoy the records now". He was pissed when I showed he was still hearing the prefab.

What tonearm are you using Ole? Is is a pita to rewire a Rega-type? There is a rubber plug in the base, but I'm worried it could be booby-trapped as the firm it came from (Origin) charge mucho corn for replacement. I could just pull the plug, I'm 99% it's a doddle, but I'm just being cautious as I wouldn't want to damage the internal cable, just want to replace external.

Cheers,
Justin

 

[wilebee]

my 2 cents

I think the idea is that when useing a copper conductor and a 63/27 or 60/40 or othe formulation solder the idea is similar to light defraction
take a glas of water and shin a focused lignt through it and it appears to bend because you are going through to different dencities of materal (air and Water in this example) theoreticly if you are connecting a copper conductor with a copper base solder to a copper connector then the molecular balance isnt interfered with and it appers to a ac signal and one straignt connection. It shouldn't affect an af signal but I have hear some (welded cables) that sound pretty extraordinary it must have been the c37 I ate

Wilebee

 

[sundholm]

sismyfot, I'd take that challenge any day of the week....Sign me up on the side of "audiofool". My entire studio is wired with snake oil, and all I've got to say is that when you pile a whole bunch of "small differences" on top of each other, they get reall big, real quick...

 

[soundguy]

amen to that.

I used to have these TRS-TRS patch bays, furmans if you must know. The small neutrik TRS connectors were somewhat of a loose fit in the jacks and if you jostled the connector around inside the jack it would make noise and if you fucked with it long enough, you'd realize there was a pressure point that sounded better than just jamming it in, but you had to FIND it and then you had to hold it there, so it was somewhat pointless... I was mixing on a ghost with those bays and patched EVERYTHING out of the console. Remember, the bays had trs on the front and the back, totally solderless... So one day shortly after accepting that the bays had this issue I sat mixing a song looking over at between 120-160 patch points. Was the noise horrid on a single patch? No, not really, but multiply it by 120+ patch points and it was a mess. The guy I was mixing with went over and put pressure on the jacks and the whole freaking image of the mix would change, it was a real sorrowful moment... I always put off the "haze" my mix would be sitting under to the mass accumulation of garbage that built up from a seeminlgy very little bit of noise sittting in the bay.

Cabling is the same way. There might be really subtle differences between this and that, but if its a subtle difference that is in any way discernable, when you multiply it many times its going to be really easy to hear. I think most of the comments on this subject in this thread come from the idea of listening to one single piece of cable or whatever hookup is needed inside a simple box and really, thats not the point. Its how all the stuff accumulates. If you track an entire song with canare star quad and have snakes to your bays from the multitrack from star quad and snakes from the bay to the console with star quad and snakes from the console to the bay with star quad and snakes from the bay to the two track with star quad and use star quad patch cables and star quad snakes to all your outboard, your mix is going to have way the fuck slower high end than if all that cabling was mogami and REALLY noticably so. Is this bad? Totally not, the stuff sounds good, but it just has a certain quality to it that you need to compensate for. By switching one cable and saying "oh, I cant hear a difference, this is all nonsense" that might make you feel better on some crusade to crucify hifi gulability mentality but a moment of pause to consider the amount of cable that is incorporated in a real mix is a little much for a rational person to throw out the window as hogwash. Especially someone who is gonna claim a single cap makes a difference (which Im not arguing). Details that are irrelevant for 10 feet of cable become very relevant when that single piece of 10 ft cable is now cumulative on 24 tracks (or more, god help you) of a recording...

this is sort of a silly thing to debate, no?

dave

 

[sundholm]

I can't believe that there is actually a debate on this issue...it should be obvious to anyone with any sort of actually professional working experience how much cabling makes a difference in their recording...I use ADC TT patchbay parts and hard-wire everything myself, never had any issues...You should hear how the bad stuff can add up on over 90 tracks! I guess if you just make demos at home, no one else cares if it sounds better anyway, but when you have radio and A&R people critiquing every little thing you do, you'll resort to anything to get an edge...feel me?

And why do people only focus on impedance? I've heard two wires with nearly identical impedance that soundstage (oh no, I used a big audiofool word, I hope everyone knows what that means...) totally differently...there is more to music thane frequency response!


And now I step off my soap box and head for a glass of merlot....

 

[Guest]

Sundholm,

Of course there is more to wire than impedence. The debate arrises as to whether wire advertised as magic has any merit to it in fact. Most of the people in this debate are professionals who do more than demos at home. I am the exception in that I am a geezer who is at home. I am however, an engineer, so I speak with at least some authority on the subject.

The issue, I believe comes down to what makes good wire good. You say use the good stuff, but what exactly is that? Is it the price that makes it good? Is it the add man's pitch? Is it snakeoil science? Of course not. It is good clean metal, wound well, insulated well and shielded well.

Next question: how do we discern which is the good stuff? Well, we could each go out and buy a spool of a hundred different brands and do individual tests, or we could ask this forum for oppinions from folks who have tried various kinds and get their findings. Then at least it would be possible to narrow the choices and make the job of choosing easier. Seems to me that is a pretty good reason for a debate.

If on the otherhand, you are made of money, or have a backer that is, you needn't worry your head about such choices. Just go with the money whether it is good or not. Then at least you can tell your clients you have the most expensive gear available. Probably get you lots of clients, maybe not tallent, but clients none the less.

 

[Guest]

Oh, I forgot (see what happens to geezers?) to add my 2 cents on "soundstage". Now I confess to being a dolt, but I do understand soundstage. What I don't understand is how to seperate it from the frequency spectrum.

 

[soundguy]

Thomas-

you hit on some good points, as has sundholm, and honestly this is a pretty silly thing to debate. It is very important to note that there is a myriad of audiophool marketing out there promising this improvment or that improvement, but just because someone has marketed C37 or claims that a wood knob makes your shit sound better should not cloud the issue that cable is mondo important.

I also dont think that you need be made of money to do the due dilligence on this subject. You can buy lots of different types of cable by the foot. If you really find this topic interesting (which if you are serious about your recordings, you should, or at least I benefitted from taking it seriously) simply order a few feet of X,Y and Z cable, you can probably get a bunch of 5 foot lengths of several varieties for under $30. Make some cables and make some recordings. Just take something like a shaker or a tambourine and record 16 or 24 tracks on whatever medium you have and listen to the differences between the cables. Make sure when you record its direct to tape and when you monitor you are coming off the machine with as few variables as possible so you can actually hear what the cable is doing. This is the experiment I did when I chose the wiring for my studio, it can do a lot for you. Beyond chosing a good all purpose cable, I suggest that you'll also find cables that you dont like as much but will find specific uses for as well.

Yes, there is audiophool snake oil out there, but there is also a legitimate difference between cabling and if you want to tweak, its a worthy investigation the same way that listening to a few different output coupling caps on a circuit can effect the sound hitting the output transformer.

For the record, Ive listened to a few of those $500+ IEC power cables at a friends studio on a studer B67 and couldnt hear any difference between the $6 digikey power cable and the $500 and $1200 "directional" AC cable. Some of it is BS and some of it isnt. The only reason I have this much to say about it really is beacuse Ive had results proven to me recently and it made a really big impact and I KNOW its the cable. One less variable to have to worry about. If you cant hear it, it doesnt matter, but if you CAN hear it, it would be a shame to discount the possibility of an improvement because you read somewhere on the internet that it was all bullshit, right?

dave

 

[Guest]

Soundguy,

You are absolutely correct. There are differences in cables. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. It comes down to what makes those differences and how we discern those. Your method of trying out different types and listening to results is invaluable to the rest who have not done the same. Some others may contribute from their own experiments as well. Anything that is in the audio path from the instrument to the recording is important. The weakest link can really destroy an otherwise great piece. Cable is often looked at as unimportant, or at least not as important as say, a tube or transistor. That is a mistake.

A big part of DIY if learning from others' experience so discussions like this are crucial to doing good work, avoiding pitfalls and beniffiting from hard won knowledge. You see that in the giant threads for SSL ot G1176, and unlike some other subjects, cables hasn't been done to death.

Another aspect that is related is connectors. There are lots of crap ones but less snake oil I think. Maybe I should start a new thread but I will ask here first. What types of cable connection/connectors are most stable, most rugged, least coloured, ect, for things like patching, instruments, mikes.

 

[soundguy]

hey tom-

Ive always used neutrik connectors and have never had an problems. Compared to switchcraft, the XLR's are great but importantly, they are lighter weight so there isnt as much weight hanging off the mic. Not the *biggest* issue in the world for a mic stand, but it makes a difference on a boom pole. The Neutrik TRS connectors come in two different sizes, compared to the switchcraft, they arent as heavy duty at all (the switchcraft TRS is indestructable) but again, they are light weight and in the case of that TRS patch bay I mentioned earlier, it was less weight hanging off the patch point, so I went with those. Another thing I noticed about bays, not all connectors fit the jacks the same way- I recently installed TT bays and the molded mogami TT cables had a much more positive fit in the switchcraft tt bays than the audio accessories bays. Just when you thought there were standards... Overall, Im a big fan of neutrik's, I use the panel mounts in all my projects as well.

dave

 

[jrmintz]

A firend of mine tried to implement an insert point between the mic pre and equalizer in his unit so a compressor could be patched in between. There wasn't room for anything larger than TT connectors in the chassis. The tolerances were so critical and the connectors on various patch cables in use were different enough that it couldn't be done. It worked fine if you had the right size connectors but it was ugly if connections weren't tight and normals weren't fully opened.

Just when you thought there were standards...

 

[sundholm]

My favorite connectors are made by Vampire...by far better and more tranparent and true than Neutrik or Switchcraft....get out your checkbook, they ain't cheap!

 

[Guest]

Who stocks Vampire? I am not familiar with them.