Official C12 Clone - Build and Support Thread

[chunger]

Chunger -  Sorry if I missed the point of your reply but is Tim still putting DIY people on the list, or are you saying he has suspended this availability for the DIY'ers until his current OEM/DIY backlog is sorted?

I cannot speak for what Tim is going to do in the future, but I do know that he is very diligent about fulfilling any and all orders that he confirms.  So, if you are IN his build queue, you can rest assured you will receive your capsule.  I also know that he is over-run with capsule inquiries and that has lead to delays in even responding to requests to get into the queue.  Obviously this is a result of a large backlog of existing orders (commercial and DIY).  The experience some people have been having is difficulty getting a response due to the communications backlog.

I've expressed interest in stocking his capsule for complete kits, but I will not be able to receive large batches of capsules like I would prefer, just a few here and there as they become available.

 

[chunger]

Well that stinks. I had read a couple of different times here that the process to get one of Tim's capsules was to email him, don't expect any response from him, and wait until you get an email from him saying your capsule is ready.  I sent my email and respected his wishes by not peppering him with followup emails. Now, I read that since I DIDN'T get a response from Tim that means that I WON'T be getting one of his capsules?

I understand that he's busy, but I don't understand operating a business when your policy is to never communicate with customers who contact you.

I guess I'll be looking for other options, but a definitive response from Tim would seem to be a common courtesy.

Sorry for the confusion.  I believe I have always been clear to cease perpetual email attempts with tim AFTER confirmation that you are in his build queue.  Prior to that point you are not officially in line.

Please keep in mind that prior to this year's diy mic craze things were relatively quiet for a super niche business.  The fact that tim did and still does everything possible to make these capsules available at a reasonable price to the diy market is a great service to the community.  We have simply upped demand too much too fast.  Others will pick up the slack at least for now.

 

[Pip]

This is probably here somewhere and a lot of you have seen this I am sure but here it is again. This is what is involved with a real C12 capsule.

http://www.saturn-sound.com/Curio's/akg's_ck12_capsule.htm

 

[Woot]

Well that stinks. I had read a couple of different times here that the process to get one of Tim's capsules was to email him, don't expect any response from him, and wait until you get an email from him saying your capsule is ready.  I sent my email and respected his wishes by not peppering him with followup emails. Now, I read that since I DIDN'T get a response from Tim that means that I WON'T be getting one of his capsules?

Yes, this is the same info I had read somewhere on here, but I can confirm, at least of 2 weeks ago that you need that return email to be confirmed as on the list. It has cost me an extra 3 months wait (6 total) - but it'll be worth it.

8)

 

[Woot]

I would construe "backplate correct" to indicate the presence of the isolated resonance chamber.  Both tskguy's and Tim's capsules feature this chamber.  Many/most of the clones do not.

I have just confirmed with Ben from Beesneez Microphones that his K12 is "definitely backplate-correct we have the multichambered capsule with the exact spacing of the original..."

They have them on sale last time I looked on their site for anyone interested. I've decided to do my C12's with them, and then use Tims in my ELAMs later on... PS no affiliation with Ben or BN

Matt

 

[chunger]

I would construe "backplate correct" to indicate the presence of the isolated resonance chamber.  Both tskguy's and Tim's capsules feature this chamber.  Many/most of the clones do not.

I have just confirmed with Ben from Beesneez Microphones that his K12 is "definitely backplate-correct we have the multichambered capsule with the exact spacing of the original..."

They have them on sale last time I looked on their site for anyone interested. I've decided to do my C12's with them, and then use Tims in my ELAMs later on... PS no affiliation with Ben or BN

Matt

Not to take anything away from the great work that Ben does in the microphone and capsule development sphere, but the Beesneez K12 capsule is its own proprietary design and not an attempt to faithfully reproduce the original CK12.  It is quite obvious that the hole pattern is different from the original design.  The K12 is probably a nice-sounding multi-chamber based capsule, but it is a Beesneez proprietary design.  For the purposes of this project, I am advocating a premium capsule that attempts to emulate the exact characteristics of the original CK12.  Tskguy and Tim Campbells capsules do this faithfully.  I am not aware of another commercially available option that does.

Not a knock against Beesneez capsules.  I have a Beesneez K7 and M7 in my hands for my mk47 builds and they are beautiful and have been had outstanding reviews from very high-level folks, but the K12 is not a vintage reproduction design.

 

[baadc0de]

Beesneez K12 I can't compare with Tim's offering since I don't have one around, but I have K12 here and it's quite popular with the other guy sharing the studio who does RnB, hip-hop and commercials. I felt the mic was definitely cool and didn't need any significant EQ to sound the way we wanted it.

The only thing I can share right now is a quickie demo I did for my gf's songwriting course assignment, so that's far from perfect as it was done with great rush The mic is this C12 clone, K12 capsule, Oliver's T14, NOS GE 6072, Russian PIO output 1uF. Went into bruno2000 Neve1084 with a mild HF shelf at 10k and some compression from drip's Altec 436 modified to RS-124 and off to fireface 800. I think I have the files somewhere without the reverb, delay and backing track, but we tracked with compression. I can send those on demand.

http://snd.sc/1cvq4IA

That said, I did wait ages for the Beesneez capsules to materialize, I think it was more than half a year .. and then I got some weird bass-heavy K87-like capsule delivered and after some persuasion I got capsules that have a C12-like hole pattern and are not too dark, but nicely smooth. Speaking over the phone with Ben, he assured me repeatedly that the K12 is a design he's most proud of.

*Not affiliated with any of the capsule makers

 

[originalmusician]

Thanks Chunger. I just ordered K7 and K12 Beesneez capsules and will hopefully be placed in Tim's queue soon so I can eventually get as close to the original design of your C12 build as possible. I've got another project in mind that Ben's K12 will eventually end up in, and it will also give me the chance to directly compare the two capsules in your C12 build.

Thanks so much for putting this project together! I'm also looking forward to doing a U47 build using one of your mic bodies and the Beesneez K7. It would be interesting to compare the Beesneez K7 against the Beesneez M7, but funds are running a little low over here for that. I have an extra Dale M7 laying around that will make an interesting comparison though.

 

[Pip]

I feel compelled to say something here. Tim is and always has tried to aid this community as best he can. The facts are he is a small niche business that does something only a few others have ever done, make CK12 capsules. He is also obligated to major manufacturers as an OEM supplier. In the world we live in that is how it works the people with the lawyers get the goods. Let time march on and we will get to a place where Tim can take care of us again. I have never met the man but I can tell by the scant email dealings I have had he cares and is a good and responsible person.

That being said I need to point out some other realities. First thanks to all who have toiled to make this possible I have purchased two kits from Chunger and one of the latest mics. I always build two of everything! I have one CT12 capsule and thats maybe the way its gonna stay for a while I guess. I have contributed to the build thread and shown my triumphs and failures in the best way I can so that others might avoid the failure moments. But in the end what do I have? I have as close as I will ever get in this life (barring hitting the lottery) to an AKG C12. I am happy! To the point though it is not a C12 by any means. The original was a point to point build that used a transformer of much different core size. It was also arrainged component wise much differently and the PSU and Switching system was seperate and different as well. The tubes were hand picked for a typical set of characteristics and at the time new stock items (the tube in this mic is critical as my posts will show). All of these things can potentially change the sound significantly.

I originally built this mic and used it with a http://recordinghacks.com RK12 capsule. It was a great mic and had a great sound. I put in the Tim Campbell capsule and it became a more classic sounding mic and had a mellower voicing. BOTH SOUNDED REALLY GOOD! That's why I chose to build another, was to AB them firstly as I think I want both.

THIS IS NOT MEANT AS A SLIGHT OR A NEGATIVE TOWARDS ANYONE OR THIS BUILD OR ANYTHING RELATED IT IS JUST MEANT TO PUT SOME REALITY IN THE WIND.

 

[JessJackson]

yeah when its loaded.

Whats strange is I'm getting the higher voltages when the mic is open and exposed but the moment i slide the body sleeve up the cable and over the mic the voltage drops slightly and then as I tighten the bell connector on the bottom, the voltage drops dramatically further to my specified 120v.

Ive repeated this over and over and literally changes the moment I tighten or loosen the bell. Ground has continuity over entire body and frame from PS regardless of bell being tight or or even slid down cable.

odd findings huh

does any one else's mic behave this same way?

 

[JessJackson]

The original was a point to point build that used a transformer of much different core size.

--- It doesn't make any difference, I own a vintage c12. People could argue that the pcb version is more "pure" and less susceptible to RF interference.

It was also arrainged component wise much differently

--- No, matadors version is the exact original schematic. If you mean vertical layout as apposed to horizontal then your obviously not commenting based on the sound.

and the PSU and Switching system was seperate and different as well.

--- The PSU is improved as for the remote switching unit, most original power supply had been modded with XLR on the power supply otherwise the output had to travel all the way from the power supply to the remote which was a lot of cable. the idea was that the remote sat in the control room with the engineer. This was all worst design than we have now.

The tubes were hand picked for a typical set of characteristics and at the time new stock items (the tube in this mic is critical as my posts will show). All of these things can potentially change the sound significantly.

--- This is still the case with NOS

I originally built this mic and used it with a http://recordinghacks.com RK12 capsule. It was a great mic and had a great sound. I put in the Tim Campbell capsule and it became a more classic sounding mic and had a mellower voicing. BOTH SOUNDED REALLY GOOD! That's why I chose to build another, was to AB them firstly as I think I want both.

--- Sometimes a u87ai works well too

THIS IS NOT MEANT AS A SLIGHT OR A NEGATIVE TOWARDS ANYONE OR THIS BUILD OR ANYTHING RELATED IT IS JUST MEANT TO PUT SOME REALITY IN THE WIND.

 

[originalmusician]

Good points Pip, and I agree. But those who build Chunger's kit carefully, will end up with one heck of a mic for the money that has all new parts and will be good-to-go for many years to come. Most of us DIYers aren't recording for major labels, so there's typically a lot more lacking on our records than the slight difference between an original C12 and a Chunger build using Tim's capsule. And at the end of the day, Chunger's mic just might sound better on a particular sound source anyways.

IMO, a lot of this holy grail microphone stuff is hype coming from vendors who are attempting to sell something other than the talent, knowledge, skill, and experience it takes to make a really good record.

 

[Woot]

For the purposes of this project, I am advocating a premium capsule that attempts to emulate the exact characteristics of the original CK12.  Tskguy and Tim Campbells capsules do this faithfully.  I am not aware of another commercially available option that does.

Not a knock against Beesneez capsules.  I have a Beesneez K7 and M7 in my hands for my mk47 builds and they are beautiful and have been had outstanding reviews from very high-level folks, but the K12 is not a vintage reproduction design.

Sorry 'chung, I didn't want to go against your recommendation in any way, I suppose I was sort of just checking out options myself and for anyone who was having trouble sourcing other options/wanted something else.

Ben did mention having 2 drilling plans, one historical and one for better matching across bigger batches. I'm not really sure what this will do to the sound. At any rate, most of this is above my pay grade, so I thank those who are so particular with their craft to explore all of these nuances in capsule production/recreation. I'm just thankful that I get to try them all out and have an awesome end product.

This thanks extends to others who make the bodies/kits too.  ;D

 

[Biasrocks]

His initial tests and prototypes have been very promising and he is basing development on a pristine vintage C12 that he has access to. 

For the purposes of this project, I am advocating a premium capsule that attempts to emulate the exact characteristics of the original CK12.  Tskguy and Tim Campbells capsules do this faithfully. 

So we go from 'initial tests' and 'prototype' to 'exact characteristics' in one day.

Interesting.

Looks like we've slipped into GeerSlutz mode.  :

My experience with Tim's capsules have been very favourable. My pair of mics get used all the time around here and there's no shortage of microphones to choose from. I've gotten the absolute best drum overhead sound after 23 years of other options. Acoustic instruments love this mic, distant micing, close micing, all great. Vocals, a legend.

I have a pair of 414eb's w/original brass capsules and even though it's not the same circuit, TC capsules have that sound. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if I swapped a CK12 from the EB into the C12 if it sounded very close, if not almost exactly the same. Tim has the benefit of having worked with one of the original AKG engineers on his capsules, the benefits of that are immeasurable. These capsules are complex beasts that surely must have taken years of work to get right.

Tim's capsules are worth the wait and sound fantastic.

Be patient and skip the sharks that are smelling a little blood in the water.

Regards,
Mark

 

[chunger]

Sorry 'chung, I didn't want to go against your recommendation in any way, I suppose I was sort of just checking out options myself and for anyone who was having trouble sourcing other options/wanted something .

This is diy.  All opinions and recommendations are just that.  In the end,  you get to find the sound that works for you without apology.

Regarding a previous statement about the AMI T14 core size being incorrect, there were several iterations of the C12 with at least 3 different transformers spec'd as well as vastly different capsule types.  To my knowlege, the early C12's used a larger core transformer but later ones utilized a small core transformer that Oliver's T14 is modelled after.  So that aspect of the clone build is accurate.

 

[Pip]

yeah when its loaded.

Whats strange is I'm getting the higher voltages when the mic is open and exposed but the moment i slide the body sleeve up the cable and over the mic the voltage drops slightly and then as I tighten the bell connector on the bottom, the voltage drops dramatically further to my specified 120v.

Ive repeated this over and over and literally changes the moment I tighten or loosen the bell. Ground has continuity over entire body and frame from PS regardless of bell being tight or or even slid down cable.

odd findings huh

does any one else's mic behave this same way?

What is the voltage swing again? Because to be master of the obvious. When the body is opened and the shielding is compromised the cicuitry gets bombarded with RFI. This could be throwing circuit into overdrive or even oscillation. That would pull the voltage way up. No?

 

[JessJackson]

yeah when its loaded.

Whats strange is I'm getting the higher voltages when the mic is open and exposed but the moment i slide the body sleeve up the cable and over the mic the voltage drops slightly and then as I tighten the bell connector on the bottom, the voltage drops dramatically further to my specified 120v.

Ive repeated this over and over and literally changes the moment I tighten or loosen the bell. Ground has continuity over entire body and frame from PS regardless of bell being tight or or even slid down cable.

odd findings huh

does any one else's mic behave this same way?

What is the voltage swing again? Because to be master of the obvious. When the body is opened and the shielding is compromised the cicuitry gets bombarded with RFI. This could be throwing circuit into overdrive or even oscillation. That would pull the voltage way up. No?

130 - 160v

I thought that at first also but then came to the conclusion that it would be drawing more therefore voltage becoming lower than greater.

 

[Matador]

It sounds like a grounding issue to me.

Please confirm the following:

1) On your 7-pin XLR connector into the mike, that you have whatever wire is carrying ground also bridges over to the brass lug that connects with the XLR screw.  You can clearly see it in Chunger's build pic:

2) That you "loosened" the XLR screw which actually tightens it against the bottom housing.

Barring that, solder a ground wire to the mike PCB right at the tube pin 9, and feed it up through the top plate, and out of the head basket's mesh.  The set your meter to ohms, and ground one side to the PSU right where it comes out of the 5-pin header, and then connect the other side to your new wire.  Then watch the reading and you assemble the housing and tighten it.

 

[StaticRick]

Sorry for the confusion.  I believe I have always been clear to cease perpetual email attempts with tim AFTER confirmation that you are in his build queue.  Prior to that point you are not officially in line.

Chunger, thanks for responding to my earlier venting. 
I am willing to wait as long as it takes, but I'm still confused about the "process" of getting in Tim's queue.  In my case, I sent an email requesting a capsule about two weeks ago.  Since I have not heard back from Tim, does that mean that I will need to try again with another email in the future, OR does it mean I'm in the "pre-queue queue" and may still hear from him at some point?

I understand that he is a busy man who is making a great contribution to the DIY community.  I don't want to bug him with too many emails.  Whatever the procedure it, I'm happy to follow it. 

My intention has always been to build the mic with the original capsule and then upgrade once everything else is right.  So, I can wait as long as I need to get the right capsule.

 

[ln76d]

Does anyone knows what is the voltage on both 5000pF capacitors?
Is there any existing voltage chart for C12 clone?
I have two 5000pF Siemens styroflex caps, unfortunatelly rated for 160V (pink ring marking).
I know that the genuine were at least 250V, but if the voltage isn't floating at those points, maybe 160V would work?