Old Farts and the Old Days

[Winston OBoogie]

...no wonder all the true designers are leaving the great groupdiy.com...

I know a few and have spoken to a few of the folks that have left here or, at least, don't post often.  Their reasons are varied.

I design quite a bit of stuff but I don't post it on here.  Not any more anyway.  Not saying I'm a great designer or anything of the sort but I do manage to eek out an existence (of sorts) from what I do so I generally keep the nitty-gritty of the details between my client and myself.

I do see quite a lot of stuff going on here that is not cloning but, the majority of what happens will be clones or derivatives.  It is what it is.

A goodly amount of stuff available as commercial product is derivative too.  You'd be surprised at how many designers of this commercial stuff just "paint by numbers".  

Just do what you do and forget what everyone else is doing.  Unless, that is, you're planning on starting a company that sells product.  Then, find your market and build what the people in that market want but do it better than your competitors.

 

[sodderboy]

I am in the same Desoto as fucanay.  I love to look at the circuits.  Nuff-respect for the designs and the hand-winding.  But when you have people begging for new designs or help fixing their mistakes wiring old designs, I can see that being a drag.  In the hobby realm, if you stop enjoying it or the group with which you hang, it's easier to change than a job or a spouse! 
I don't see you gassing away with hifi weenies.
Mike
PS: if they accept you in the super secret forum, will you put in a good word for me?  I've got a second-hand apron. . . ..

 

[fucanay]

One other point I wanted to make is that this is totally a hobby for me. I had always wanted to get into electronics. My grandfather was always buying broken radios and fixing them but unfortunately he died before I could ever learn anything from him. I always loved looking through his parts bins and boxes when I was a kid and never knew what any of that stuff was. So my old fart died when I was 12 and now need surrogate old farts to fill that role. And it bums me out that a lot of knowledge won't get passed down generationally in the future. That is some of what the old farts on here are doing whether they know it or not. They keep hand built, high quality pro audio gear alive not just buy posting schematics, but giving some of the history and design philosophy behind them. It's value is immeasurable.

 

[tommypiper]

Winston, I'm sure if you wanted to sell some of your designs here you would do very well. 

(either a design, a PCB, a finished unit, a kit, whatever you want)

The forum has been moving away from pure DIY to more PCB ready group projects for years.  In general I think this is a good thing. 

Winston is also right when he says much modern gear is dirivitive and even commercial designers paint by the numbers.  At least here we can all do mods, ask questions, change anything we want, even if it's practically a kit in the beginning.  I have yet to build anything "stock" and will always make changes.  I'm interested in new projects, not clones, but some cloning has to be tolerated I suppose.  Fast forward another 6-8 years and I think things will really be interesting...  I hope.

Analag, hope you stick around, bro.

 

[seavote]

"to many cloners"
in defense of cloners:
i'm a paint by numbers member.the reason i found this forum is out of neccesity. the sounds i was getting from my low budget equiptment were not cutting it. i have'nt play professionally with any consistency for about 8 years? so i could not justify spending the $$ on high end equiptment. if im going to invest my $$ i'd like to know what im getting. by building a clone i know im getting a classic,respected and proven piece of equiptment.
i built two guitars (electric) years ago. i used some common(in guitars) and some exotic woods. the guitars were beutiful
i used quilted bookmatched walnut. paduak, a bright orange wood. there were great looking but both had a harsh attack.(transients? if thats the correct word) the lesson i learned was that unless your willing to do a great deal of experimenting, and spend a great deal of time and money your better off sticking with the tried and true.
different members are here for different reasons, please dont hold it against someone if they dont know as much about electronics as you do (thats directed at all members) some members do seem lazy. ignore them.
i try to contribute any way i can unfortunatley those ways are very limited.

 

[hitchhiker]

Hey Analag,

read Steppenwolf  , same thing really .(but how to respond?)  Culture ,music, drama, literature, all struggle against modern vangaurd.  Maybe it is a tradition to at least share your creative vision to the next evolution?

 

[Gus]

from  The Simpsons "Hurricane Neddy"

Ned's father talking to the doctor "We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!"

 

[mushy]

All forums change.  That's the nature of an open forum.  I've lurked here through a few incarnations and cowered in the corner in state of sheer intimidation and awe.  Then I, too, started as a paint by numbers rube but I can say with all honesty that it a true gateway drug.  We can't all keep up with the likes of Analog, PRR, CJ and the rest but that doesn't make us bad people.  I learned so much from my first project that now I won't start a project unless every inch of it has been researched. I am honestly not trying to plead my case as to why I deserve to be here because the truth is I don't.  I'm just relaying my experience.

This is a very personal place for a lot of the people here which can lead to very emotional reactions when tides start turning.  Maybe we can find a way to fix it or at least make it less painful for the braintrust members.

 

[radiance]

BMX??..not me..it's skateboarding I'm into.

But I will not turn into a new born christian when my career is over...no can do siree.

Ok, back on topic...ya'll stay a little longer will ya?

 

[guavatone]

I hope you stay Analag.  I also have faith that people will work this out.  i know there are some die hard students that will be able to soon answer most of the repetitive novice questions.  I think the last point is what will make this forum keep going in a positive direction(the next generation).  There have been some bad seeds, but good always seems to prevail. 

 

[solder_city]

no wonder all the true designers are leaving the great groupdiy.com. Am I next in line...

arrogant as ever, i see. true designer... LOL

 

[[silent:arts]]

no wonder all the true designers are leaving the great groupdiy.com. Am I next in line...

arrogant as ever, i see. true designer... LOL

insulting as ever.

still waiting for any other contribution, like a design, a schematic or even a finished unit.
show us the designs / schematics you have done.
show us something other members have done and are happy with it due to your design / schematic / contribution.

thank you.

 

[analag]

no wonder all the true designers are leaving the great groupdiy.com. Am I next in line...

arrogant as ever, i see. true designer... LOL

insulting as ever.

still waiting for any other contribution, like a design, a schematic or even a finished unit.
show us the designs / schematics you have done.
show us something other members have done and are happy with it due to your design / schematic / contribution.

thank you.

Well yardman...wha yuh have fi seh bout dat.

Believe it or not I understand the guy. I grew up around people like him. In fact the guy who taught me electronics is an oddball like old "solder".
To those who really want to get a grasp of the design details of their favorite proven devices...try simulating it and be amazed at how great or how sloppy they really are. It's all about the sound, but to truly understand it without mucho years of experience...simulate it.

 

[lofi]

to be honest I dont bloody understand it yet alone simulate it :-[

Some of us will try to improve, others will take and run and yes some will steal. There are so many people that are way up there in this place to live in awe of. I feel unhappy that i cant offer the stimulation needed, only the fact that you have some willing, if albeit stupid, students knocking around.

Iain

 

[Winston OBoogie]

...to truly understand it without mucho years of experience...simulate it.

Hmm? interesting.  Simulations never really taught me anything.  Except that I'd made a stupid error.  I would have found the error on the bench with a real circuit anyway and it makes you think about what's happening when you're having to work through the problem yourself so, for me, it's more of a learning process. 

Back when I wanted to know about this stuff, I read some books, and, then, re-read them umpty-nine times as my understanding increased and I was able to get more out of them.  Mostly, I just built things.  Had no test gear, to speak of, so did a lot of listening and comparing to known circuits.  Learned a lot that way. 
I'd build something, then hit the books again to figure out what was, or wasn't!, happening, and play with the build until I was happy.

Getting a scope was a big leap forward.  Years later, a spectrum analyzer another.   

My knowledge, still, seems to come in spurts.  I learn and apply my new tricks for a while.  At some point, I get bored and stagnate.  So I go in search of material to learn from, pilfer, adapt, change...
I don't always look at audio for ideas. 

Not discounting simulations entirely.  I use them myself when I'm being lazy and don't feel like doing the maths.  But I think more can be learned by building and working through your circuits on a bench.

Each to his own though.

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Winston, I'm sure if you wanted to sell some of your designs here you would do very well. 

(either a design, a PCB, a finished unit, a kit, whatever you want)

Thanks for the encouragement Tommy.  Have been thinking about it recently along with another forum member who is way more capable than me of handling the actual business end of things. 

I guess we'll see what happens with the forum.  Things are a-changin' in regard to sales.  Change is inevitable of course.  It's just a matter of seeing how the playing field is afterwards.

John.

 

[Winston OBoogie]

As an afterthought to cloning etc:

I see some members that knew very little (judging from their questions) when they first came on board. 
They built the clones but are now wading in deeper waters. 
Some of them stuck around and are now "passing it on" by helping and answering the questions they themselves asked at first.
 
All in all, it's a good thing 

 

[JohnRoberts]

You don't need old farts to show you the way... these days wiki is more right than wrong, and if anything google gives you too many answers.

the IQ test these days is learning how to sort through all the internet chaff to find the wheat but it's out there... I'm so old I had to read books to learn stuff.

JR

 

[lofi]

You don't need old farts to show you the way

maybe not, but who can I ask when I dont understand something? Wiki and google inform and answer specific questions but they cant point me in the direction my question should be going in the first place.

Iain

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't discount the value of mentoring. My early technician jobs put me in contact with real engineers who would answer my questions as long as I wasn't a pest, but real growth comes when you have built up a solid foundation of basic understanding and reach the critical mass to build upon that on your own.

I also found myself pretty early on, sitting in the chair where the buck stopped so I didn't have somebody to lean on, and had to figure stuff out myself, or fail. It isn't easy or pleasant, but very empowering after you string together several successes. This was decades ago, you don't know how well you have it with the Internet..  Just getting data sheets or knowing to look for data sheets was a major task back then.

I used to devour every schematic I could get my hands on, and the "ideas for design" published in all the design magazines. The old school (before computer checking) schematics, and even magazine ideas for design were especially fun since they so often contained MISTAKES...  Just to keep it interesting, try to figure out the actual circuit.  :  Probably better design training than if the schematic was correct.

I also took pride in being able to fix anything (almost).  Not as easy as the very old days when you just take the tubes down to the drug store and check them, but understanding how devices fail and how to measure them to determine good/bad is useful.  I don't know if they took my advice, but I fixed a broken coffee roaster a couple years ago, and told the manufacturer what I thought was wrong with the design that caused the failure (needed a snubber cap on a relay).

JR