People in Denmark Are Much Happier Than People in the United States. Here’s Why.

[ramshackles]

I don't think the advantages are limited exclusively to the Danes. Most European countries are similar. I think it is more a Europe/US thing.

Cheers

Ian

Yes in some respects, although I think UK is behind the majority of Europe on this. UK is increasingly more like the US politically and less like Denmark, Sweden, Holland, even Germany....

I'm English and lived in Denmark for about 5 years. We had our first baby there.

Labour took a lot of flak for their unrealistic policies in the recent election. Most of what Corbyn was proposing was a fairly mild policy of social democracy which countries like Denmark take as a given. The major flaw was failing (or not having the guts?) to propose the tax increases necessary to enact *every* policy (although he at least did attempt to cost the major policies - a hard thing to do as opposition, and the other more outlandish stuff was carefully phrased as 'hope' or 'wishes').

Anyway, back to what makes Denmark different, from an English perspective.
My last year in Denmark was 2012 so all my figures are from then.
As a PHD student there, I paid 37% tax, which I believe was the base rate. I think there was some optional 0.5% for the church as well (I'm not sure about this...).

What did I get for all this tax? Here is what I got and my comparison of the UK of today:

- The minimum wage was something like 110DKK/hr. This was about £10-11/hr. At the time, UK's minimum wage was about half of this! All of a sudden, those high taxes dont seem so crazily high!

- University was *free*. Not just for Danes, but all EU citizens. I studied there for nothing. Unlike in the UK, where people (especially pensionsers and those who didn't go to university) grumble about the cost of university or that it shouldnt ever be free (this is why it was so easy to raise tuition fees), I got the impression in Denmark that not having free higher education was as unthinkable as not having free health care.  There was an Iranian guy studying with me; I believe the fees he had to pay were comparable to what a current UK student has to pay to study in their own country

- On top of no tuition fees, Danish students get a monthly grant called SU. I'm not sure how much this was, but it seemed fairly generous. I also think (not sure so perhaps a Dane can correct me), you could claim SU from a certain age for something like 3-4 years regardless of whether you went to uni or not? Compare this to having to get a student loan in the UK. Astronomical tuition fees mean astronomical student loans. Most students graduating now are not going to ever pay off their loan - so what is the UK economy really gaining from this?
Danish universities also seemed to have a better system of getting funding from private companies. I was working in hydrogeophysics - a very well funded area in Denmark since all their drinking water comes from groundwater aquifers. Much funding came to my department not from government but from interested 3rd parties - Ramboll for example. In exchange they would get research or be able to have some influence over things such as areas of research, development of software etc...

I dont believe the UK would ever get back to free universities, but I believe a system of decreasing tuition fees for economically important courses - medecine, natural sciences, teaching etc and increasing tuition fees for over subscribed  and less economically important courses (sorry any sociology or philosphy graduates....) would be helpful.

- Healthcare. My experience of healthcare in Denmark is better than the UK.  However, the maternity ward where my wife was (Aarhus Hospital) is apparently the best in the country so I may just be lucky! My wife went through labour in 2 private rooms and was attended continously throughout. At the time of birth there was a senior midwife and 2 trainees present.  After birth she was transferred to a private bedroom (with bathroom), where she spent 2 nights (this benefit is only available to first time mums). All meals were provided for her. Throughout pregnancy she had a bi-weekly checkup - at least initially, I cant remember if the interval increased later on.

- Transport. Transport is publicly-funded and I believe operated by 2 companies (Arriva definitely operated in Aarhus).
Again, my experience is that it works better than in the UK.

- Cleanliness. I don't know if Denmark employs  more litter pickers/bin men than the UK, but my town was certainly cleaner than UK towns. (Except after fridaybar!) There is also a system to encourage proper recycling of bottles and cans. Whenever you buy a bottle of coke or beer, you basically 'rent' the bottle. It means you pay about 20pence extra, but then you get that back when you return the bottles to the supermarket (in the form of a coupon to spend in the supermarket). Its a good system.

- Bike paths and other public infrastructure (parks, paths etc). Well, this is already well documented. They do it right over there.

Countries such as Denmark are *proof* that personal wealth does not equate to happiness. Collective wealth does.
Who is the happier person in this situation:
- Person A. They earn high but pay high tax so earn less after tax than person B. But they live in an area with excellent infrastructure, a nice environment with low crime...bike paths to get where they want, well cared for public spaces, free libraries within walking distance etccc...
- Person B. They earn relatively high but pay low tax so have more money than Person A. But their area has no bike paths, the 1 public park is a 10 minute drive away, the public library is underfunded and has a small collection and the local environment is dirty and poorly cared for.


I think there is a cultural difference which makes this possible though. Danes have inherently more respect for each other and the surrounding environment than in the UK.

Also, I'd point out that one of the difficulties implementing this in the UK is the relative overcrowding. We have far less land per head than other EU countries! (EDIT - I've been shown to be wrong on this, see below. Perhaps I listened too much Brexit hyperbole there. Luckily it didnt affect my vote!)

 

[micaddict]

Also, I'd point out that one of the difficulties implementing this in the UK is the relative overcrowding. We have far less land per head than other EU countries!

2016 figures:
Denmark 129.8/km2
UK 265.7/km2
The Netherlands 409.6/km2

Still, I'd say my country is a lot more like Denmark.

 

[Script]

Population density doesn't really equate here. Look at US figure.
US: 90.6/sq mi (35.0/km2)

The lower the density, the more socialist, potentially? A myth. It must be something different.
(Also: Britain being overcrowded? Also a myth. It must be something different. Crappy politics?)

@ramshackles
Thanks for sharing. Truly appreciated.

 

[ramshackles]

2016 figures:
Denmark 129.8/km2
UK 265.7/km2
The Netherlands 409.6/km2

Still, I'd say my country is a lot more like Denmark.

Interesting.....so no excuse UK!
I guess the insane house prices are down to our flawed housing market more than lack of land then....

UK has swung far away from any kind of socialism. More capitalist driven than any other country in the EU. We have some of the lowest levels of happiness, highest levels of obesity.
I do think it is all related and I think we, more than many other EU nations, have a lot to learn in respect to income vs happiness.

Someone mentioned Danish humility as a reason to why they feel happy and/or are more interested in the 'greater good' of the nation rather than personal benefit. I think there is a lot to be said for this.  I also think respect for one another and your surroundings has a huge part to play. When I was in Denmark I was often surprised by little acts of respectfulness from across the spectrum of society. I see this increasingly degrading the UK, across all spectrums of society, from students to pensioners, working class to upper class equally.
I'm not sure that this cultural difference can be easily overcome in the UK, although I'd love to see more education targeted at social and environmental awareness.

 

[rob_gould]

2016 figures:
Denmark 129.8/km2
UK 265.7/km2
The Netherlands 409.6/km2

Still, I'd say my country is a lot more like Denmark.

So would I.

 

[micaddict]

So would I.

Yeah, but in your case that can mean two things, Rob. 



Henk

 

[rob_gould]

Sorry, yes - my current home country...

 

[micaddict]

Blijkbaar voel je je thuis. 

 

[living sounds]

What if everyone was paid the same wage? Isn't everyone's life equally valuable? How is an hour of my life worth more, or less, than yours?

Compensation should reflect the value provided by the task. It's an economic necessity that tasks more demanding as well as those more in demand are better compensated.

In reality 1) this is not necessarily the case and 2) there is massive overcompensation at the top.

Also, there need to be feedback mechanisms like property and inheritance taxes that level the playing field constantly to a certain degree. these have been neglected for many decades now, and that's where most of the problems in the world today originate.

 

[ombudsman]

Anyway, back to what makes Denmark different, from an English perspective.
My last year in Denmark was 2012 so all my figures are from then.
As a PHD student there, I paid 37% tax, which I believe was the base rate. I think there was some optional 0.5% for the church as well (I'm not sure about this...).

Is this the income tax rate, after the 8% gross tax,  health care tax, and standard or alternative deduction ?
In any case it would not include the 25% VAT on purchases, which in the case of many consumer goods are already relatively high (or low purchasing power for the money you could say). VATs are regressive because everybody has to buy some things to stay alive; maybe this is not such a big deal for most people in a relatively prosperous country like Denmark, however if you happen to be among or near the 6% in poverty, that VAT is a serious downward force on whatever mobility you might hope to have.

Personally I am open to paying higher taxes in return for certain well chosen and implemented services. But if I moved to Denmark I would be paying at least double my current tax burden (that's net tax burden, as distinct from income tax burden), and some of what I would be subsidizing through that taxation would be higher education for other people who I have to compete with on the job market without having that level of education myself. 

In other words, as in most stable nations, the system works a lot better for people with a certain inherited or earned middle class stability (especially at the age when higher education normally happens) than it does for those without it, but the people who are less well served by it still have to pay for benefits they don't receive. The worst deal is reserved for those who work full time at the lowest paying jobs which are also high enough paying that they do not qualify for or use social welfare programs . 

As someone with currently good health and affordable (but high deductible) insurance, I would be crazy to move there, at least as far as finances are concerned. I could see how it would be a good deal for a person that is planning to go to college and/or has pre existing or chronic health issues or is getting closer to retirement.

I should emphasize that I consider myself a moderate liberal. I often find fault with the math and the details in leftist or socialist proposals, but this is a cynical leftist critique of revolutionary thought, not a libertarian or conservative critique. 

Americans who entertain what they think is a version of socialism that they can support are consistently describing policies that are 1) much better for the white midle class than for minorities or the poor, especially student loan debt relief which is as blatant of a self serving, regressive money grab as any Republican tax break for the rich, which is why they have less diverse support than Democrats, and 2) not accurately representing what is and is not socialism.

 

[micaddict]

As someone with currently good health and affordable (but high deductible) insurance, I would be crazy to move there, at least as far as finances are concerned. I could see how it would be a good deal for a person that is planning to go to college and/or has pre existing or chronic health issues or is getting closer to retirement.

Well, if only students and chronic patients wanted to live in Denmark, the system would likely not work, would it?

I should emphasize that I consider myself a moderate liberal.

Are you Dutch? (Your handle seems to suggest so.)
I ask because "liberal" in Dutch doesn't mean quite the same as it does in the Anglo-Saxon countries.

 

[ombudsman]

Well, if only students and chronic patients wanted to live in Denmark, the system would likely not work, would it?

Indeed not. But then moving somewhere in the second half of one's life is a different proposition than growing up there . If I was from there I would have enjoyed more of the available benefits than I would now. 

The topic basically proposes adapting DK like policies in the US and my reaction to that is the same as the prospect of moving there, again in so far as the economic aspects.

The difference also outlines another point - no one wants to pay for benefits that are not available to them, or who don't benefit them or their identity group.  It goes against basic fairness and self interest (which are related but not the same thing). That being said, most people have a lot of flexibility and subjectivity in defining these things according to their self interest. So we say the things that don't benefit us are objectively bad, or are the same thing as corruption, while defending the ones that benefit us as being obvious products of common sense or decency.

No one is above these influences, but they can be de empowered by being aware of them, and we can discount the power of arguments to the extent that they are self serving.

When left leaning social policies don't benefit you (as in my scenario re: higher education) it might be easier to see a couple of things; first, that I am not the only one that would benefit little or not at all from them, and second, that they presume a non competitive cooperative attitude that I am not sure has been fully thought out or is as widely held as it is presumed.  It's nice to think of society as people helping each other, but that has largely not been my experience (not that I wouldn't like it better if it was that way, but that's a different question). I do think that things like opportunities, careers, and material possessions are zero sum games to a great extent. We can't all have white collar or technical or creative or high paying jobs, and there are people who would like to beat you to the next raise or promotion.

I am OK with competition so long as it is fair. When it comes to social programs, that has to mean that they are available and accessible to everyone,  and do not serve as machinery to preserve inherited or racial or political privilege; not just in theory but in practice.  And whether you are talking about college or things like nice bike trails, I don't think the poor should do any subsidization of things they don't use on an individual level, through a VAT or otherwise.

Are you Dutch? (Your handle seems to suggest so.)
I ask because "liberal" in Dutch doesn't mean quite the same as it does in the Anglo-Saxon countries.

No, I'm from and have always lived in the US.

 

[sodderboy]

I've said it before on these pages-
Denmark is an over 75% (and dropping)  ethnically pure population the size of Kings, Queens, and a bit of Nassau counties.  Most important yet so far unmentioned reason.  Can't compare happiness stats with ethnic purity easily on a phone but I am guessing it's high.

And once the people vote for or have forced upon them a Ministry of Equality it's all over for any society.
somebody forgot to put the sild in the fridge last night. . .
Mike

 

[Script]

Yes, population density does not equate. Total area size does and total population number does too. Not so sure about the ethnic aspect though cos that would imply that the US, which is an ethnically diverse country, is a total failure for happiness -- and I'd simply reject that notion.

 

[Script]

BTW, Switzerland is an ethnically diverse country too, still they rank 4th in Happiness in 2017.

Anyway, recommended reading on happiness, especially chapter 7 on the US:
http://worldhappiness.report/ed/2017/

Happiness has fallen in America

The USA is a story of reduced happiness. In 2007 the USA ranked 3rd among the OECD countries; in 2016 it came 19th. The reasons are declining social support and increased corruption (see Chapter 7) and it is these same factors that explain why the Nordic countries do so much better.

The claims in the video posted by "living sound" illustrate the social support aspect and seem apt.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

The difference also outlines another point - no one wants to pay for benefits that are not available to them, or who don't benefit them or their identity group.  It goes against basic fairness and self interest (which are related but not the same thing).

I beg to differ. Most people in social democracies accept and understand the value of creating welfare for others. Failure to understand that is the reason for ghettos and the ugly consequences of having the poor scrounging at the doorsteps of the rich.

When left leaning social policies don't benefit you (as in my scenario re: higher education)

You can't restrict the social democracies to free education; there are many other aspects that are important for other categories, e.g. unemployment insurance and healthcare.  I don't know your age group and I don't wish you ill, but unemployment and/or illness may be lurching...

  It's nice to think of society as people helping each other, but that has largely not been my experience ... I'm from and have always lived in the US.

This explains that.

 

[ramshackles]

Is this the income tax rate, after the 8% gross tax,  health care tax, and standard or alternative deduction ?
In any case it would not include the 25% VAT on purchases, which in the case of many consumer goods are already relatively high (or low purchasing power for the money you could say).

As someone with currently good health and affordable (but high deductible) insurance, I would be crazy to move there, at least as far as finances are concerned. I could see how it would be a good deal for a person that is planning to go to college and/or has pre existing or chronic health issues or is getting closer to retirement.

That was the total tax I paid off my wage slip. I dont know how it breaks down, but income tax, social security etc all included. Obviously not VAT.

My personal belief here is that you are equating more money for self == more happiness.  This view is probably stronger in the USA than elsewhere in the world, especially europe and *especially* scandinavia. Everyone has their own opinions on whether this is right or wrong; I won't touch on it here.
The point is, in Denmark, on the whole, this is not the governing belief. It is a welfare state. Its' welfare system, on the whole, seems to work better than the UK.

I'd also point out that it is not only about welfare. The most obvious advantages to me were public infrastructure and environment.
I lived in Aarhus and it is a *very* well cared for city. I enjoyed miles of segregated bike paths, (including an awesome coastal bike path that was wholly separate from any road for large portions of it), Nice beaches, a forest with well maintained paths and an outdoor 'gym' in it, museums you would only expect to find in much larger cities (e.g Den Gamle By), Parks, botanical gardens...
It was clear that there has been and continues to be a lot of thought put into urban design - much more so than in UK towns and cities. Obviously, finding room for all the bike paths springs to mind, but other projects such as opening up the little river through the centre and the new park in front of the central library and the huge project which was starting when I left - to regenerate the harbour area.
Looking back at the ~5 years I spent there and comparing it to the ~4 years I have been back in the UK, the emphasis on providing a nice environment is staggering.
All those things can be enjoyed by all, regardless of income. And, to me at least, it makes a *huge* difference. Other personal things which were 'lacking' from my life, I didnt really care about. I couldnt afford a car, but the bike paths and public transport made up for it. There were very few occasions when I wished I had a car (I once bought a 2nd hand fridge freezer without thinking about how I would get it home...).

I would personally happily pay 37% tax in the UK just in return for lots of bike paths and a better litter/recycling system.

VAT in Denmark is higher, but not a lot higher, than in the UK. I did notice that food in super markets was more expensive, but not devastatingly more.  There were plenty of low priced supermarkets in Denmark. Within walking distance of me was Aldi, Lidl, Kiwi, Rema 1000.... Occasionally I felt flush and went to Foetex...

Denmark is not without its problems (it does get a little boring....) but I felt much happier being out and about in the town there than I do now, because it was a nicer, better cared for place, with more places to go, walk, see... I earn more money now than I ever have and I can't wait to move (3 weeks to go).

 

[ramshackles]

Welfare benefits is always a contentious topic, I don't want to get involved either way.

My personal belief is that the reason people in Denmark are so happy is not because of the welfare system per se, but of all the public infrastructure I talked about above and the social attitudes of respect that are instilled in people.
Public infrastructure - transport, libraries, swimming pools, bike paths, path paths, gardens, parks, museums, theatres, rubbish bins, recycling, foliage & beautification, benches and general, continuous urban planning and adaptation, can be enjoyed by all and, I believe, greatly enhance quality of life, more than any 10% or so increase in wage.

All this talk makes me nostalgic for my time in Denmark, so I need to remind myself of its' flaws. They banned marmite. 

 

[living sounds]

I've said it before on these pages-
Denmark is an over 75% (and dropping)  ethnically pure population the size of Kings, Queens, and a bit of Nassau counties.  Most important yet so far unmentioned reason.  Can't compare happiness stats with ethnic purity easily on a phone but I am guessing it's high.

And once the people vote for or have forced upon them a Ministry of Equality it's all over for any society.
somebody forgot to put the sild in the fridge last night. . .
Mike

"Ethnic purity" is irrelevant. On the contrary, more diversity makes life better. I cannot imagine eating only traditional German food (in fact I hardly ever eat it), for example.

Lot's of immigration (which is a different matter than "ethnic purity") is only a problem when inequality is high. This has been intensely studied.

So again, the solution lies in the social democratic policies as implimented in Denmark.

 

[micaddict]

Etnic purity is a scary term, at least historically speaking.

Anyway, come and take a look in Amsterdam everyone.