Re-wilding

[Tubetec]

The old metaphor 'killing two birds with the one stone' comes to mind , you never know JR the mistletoe might get you a kiss around Christmas time too .
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush ,

 

[AnalogPackrat]

You could plant some stuff that's more attractive to birds?

I don't know enough about American botany to suggest something, but over here that could be stuff like mistletoe.

Mistletoe is a parasitic organism on trees, particularly oaks, that weakens and kills the tree eventually. Why would anyone "plant" that?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistletoe
Birds are opportunistic feeders and the species that eat berries and fruit will take what is ripe. You can't deter them with other plants, they'll end up eating both because your intended "food source" for them won't always be more attractive. In addition, more food will attract more birds.

 

[cyrano]

Mistletoe is a parasitic organism on trees, particularly oaks, that weakens and kills the tree eventually. Why would anyone "plant" that?

Science is slowly getting rid of the word "parasitic". Most parasites are symbionts. I knew Mistletoe wasn't a good example as it's a name covering maybe a thousand species worldwide. Sorry I couldn't find a better example.

Mistletoe only kills trees in rare circumstances. It's not widely studied yet, but the same goes for fungi. In the cases that have been thoroughly studied, it showed that tree mushrooms don't kill trees. Quite the contrary, in a lot of cases it was shown that the mushroom produced substances that cured the tree. In a large study in the Netherlands, poplars were infected on purpose, only to find out that only sick trees produced mushrooms. A healthy tree didn't.

Growing crops in alternating beds, for instance onions between carrots, is a very old technique that's being rediscovered. Unfortunately, I don't know how that technique works exactly for orchards.

Birds are opportunistic feeders and the species that eat berries and fruit will take what is ripe. You can't deter them with other plants, they'll end up eating both because your intended "food source" for them won't always be more attractive. In addition, more food will attract more birds.

You can deter other animals by growing crops in alternate rows, so I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work with fruit trees.

I know there's a guy nearby my house who's growing cherries that started applying this technique a few years ago, but I have no idea what he's planting between the cherry trees. Obviously, orchards take many years to convert.

I've seen his newest orchards no longer are netted for protection. His older cherry orchards look like aviaries because the nets are supported with sturdy metal frames. No bird will ever get in there. I guess a small loss of cherries is cheaper than putting up these big constructions?

He's also producing apples and pears. I think there are gooseberries in between the rows of apples and pears. I'll ask him if these have anything to do with pest control next time I see him.

Of course, I also don't know which species of birds John has to deal with. If it's anything like the western jackdaw (Coloeus monedula) it could be tricky, as these are very intelligent and operate in an almost military fashion.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Science is slowly getting rid of the word "parasitic".

Hardly.

Most parasites are symbionts.

There are plenty of purely parasitic organisms out there. Nature isn't all rainbows and fluffy clouds.

I knew Mistletoe wasn't a good example as it's a name covering maybe a thousand species worldwide. Sorry I couldn't find a better example.

Mistletoe only kills trees in rare circumstances.

Yet I've seen many large oaks killed by it at my grandparents and other places where it could be observed to infest and then kill large oaks over a period of 10-20 years.

It's not widely studied yet, but the same goes for fungi.

Who said anything about fungi?

Growing crops in alternating beds, for instance onions between carrots, is a very old technique that's being rediscovered.

Never was lost around here. Passed down through the generations along with a lot of other useful folk info. City/intellectual folks learn something they never knew and claim "rediscovery" which is usually false, but hubris and ego are part and parcel of their culture.

Unfortunately, I don't know how that technique works exactly for orchards.

It doesn't work for birds.

You can deter other animals by growing crops in alternate rows, so I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work with fruit trees.

Some mammals and insects can be partially detered. Mint family plants are one common type, but they also tend to be invasive which just moves the problem.

Of course, I also don't know which species of birds John has to deal with. If it's anything like the western jackdaw (Coloeus monedula) it could be tricky, as these are very intelligent and operate in an almost military fashion.

Key phrase highlighted. I know of no plant that deters birds. They see your juicy berries or apples and could care less about the tree or plant beside it. Even the thorniest prickly plants offer safe nesting for birds. We have mockingbirds and brown thrashers nesting in blackberry thickets which offer some protection from mammalian predators. Same with honey locust trees that have wicked 3" thorns.

 

[cyrano]

Hardly.


There are plenty of purely parasitic organisms out there. Nature isn't all rainbows and fluffy clouds.

There are some. But every time one of these organisms is being studied thoroughly, the conclusion is, it isn't black and white. But obviously, you don't want to change what you believe.

Yet I've seen many large oaks killed by it at my grandparents and other places where it could be observed to infest and then kill large oaks over a period of 10-20 years.

That is possible if there is very little else to eat for these birds. Monoculture is a bitch, even for oaks.

Who said anything about fungi?

I know a lot more about fungi than about orchards. But sorry I brought up another example.

Never was lost around here. Passed down through the generations along with a lot of other useful folk info. City/intellectual folks learn something they never knew and claim "rediscovery" which is usually false, but hubris and ego are part and parcel of their culture.

Never was lost? With some of the largest monocultures in the world on farms? LOL.

This isn't about "city folk". My grandfather, who was a farmer, started reintroducing these farming methods, after them being lost, mainly due to the US propaganda for toxic pest control just before and after WWII.

It doesn't work for birds.

I suppose you've studied them thoroughly?

Some mammals and insects can be partially detered. Mint family plants are one common type, but they also tend to be invasive which just moves the problem.

It's farming. Nothing to do with being invasive if you use local species.

OTOH, if you have species like the Colorado beetle that preys on potatoes, this method doesn't work very well because this species isn't native.

Key phrase highlighted. I know of no plant that deters birds. They see your juicy berries or apples and could care less about the tree or plant beside it. Even the thorniest prickly plants offer safe nesting for birds. We have mockingbirds and brown thrashers nesting in blackberry thickets which offer some protection from mammalian predators. Same with honey locust trees that have wicked 3" thorns.

It's not because you've never heard about it it doesn't exist...

Here's just one study that found bird damage on apple orchards was very small when compared to the advantages:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0183405
It is about the situation in the US, as it's partly funded by the United States Department of Agriculture. As you can see, it's not about direct control, but about diversity.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

There are some. But every time one of these organisms is being studied thoroughly, the conclusion is, it isn't black and white. But obviously, you don't want to change what you believe.

So mosquitoes are symbiotic from the point of view of, say, malaria. They're still parasites on mammals. Same with fleas and bubonic plague. We were having a simple discussion about small scale horticulture/agriculture and from that perspective nothing I said was wrong. If course from a pure science perpective things are more complex.

That is possible if there is very little else to eat for these birds. Monoculture is a bitch, even for oaks.

The oaks that I saw die were in healthy mixed hardwood forests or in relatively open areas around ponds and fields. Not monoculture by any stretch.

Never was lost? With some of the largest monocultures in the world on farms? LOL.

Again, we weren't talking about large scale agriculture, but small orchards and vegetable gardens.

This isn't about "city folk". My grandfather, who was a farmer, started reintroducing these farming methods, after them being lost, mainly due to the US propaganda for toxic pest control just before and after WWII.

We weren't talking about large farms. Around here (a place you have never visited) people have been growing fruit and vegetables for their own (and extended family) consumption for hundreds of years. Some also get a bit larger and set up a roadside stand or sell at the farmer's market. Many have not forgotten the old ways and still practice them.

At larger scales it becomes much more difficult to achieve the efficiency levels needed with mixed crops, though some in the US are doing no-till and other techniques to reduce chemical, water, and fuel use.

I suppose you've studied them thoroughly?

Having grown up in a rural setting and lived rurally for all but about ten years of my adult life I have observed birds directly. I read extensively on nature and science. I'm not an ornithologist, but I don't have to be to know enough about birds here in the US. I grew up in and now live in the same region as JR (southeastern US) and also lived 29 years on the west coast. I've never observed it.

It's farming. Nothing to do with being invasive if you use local species.

Plants don't have to be non-native to be invasive from the perspective of gardening, horticulture, or landscaping. Go ahead and plant something from the mint family in your veggie patch. I'll keep mine contained elsewhere.

OTOH, if you have species like the Colorado beetle that preys on potatoes, this method doesn't work very well because this species isn't native.



It's not because you've never heard about it it doesn't exist...

Here's just one study that found bird damage on apple orchards was very small when compared to the advantages:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0183405

Well this study surely refutes JR's experience. There, you go, John! You don't have a problem at all! No need to discuss it anymore because a paper has been published.

It is about the situation in the US, as it's partly funded by the United States Department of Agriculture. As you can see, it's not about direct control, but about diversity.

That's fine if you aren't in your 70s and trying to have a few homegrown apples from your already planted trees before you become compost. It's all about the context, cyrano.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You guys are pretty entertaining... I am glad to watch from the cheap seats.

JR

 

[cyrano]

You guys are pretty entertaining... I am glad to watch from the cheap seats.

JR

Yeah, but tell us, do you know which species of birds are eating your fruit?

Some, like the Jackstraw are very hard to keep away. A friend calls them the "engineers" cause when they set their mind to it, they'll get into anything. I've seen them picking away at a steel fireplace chimney grid. took 'em months to get in. And the only reason was to start a nest in there.

In your garden, old CDs are probably the best suggestion yet. I talked to a pro and he suggested "Fireflies". This is a commercial variant of the CD idea. He also told me that having taller trees surrounding your small fruit trees is like an "invitation to lunch" for birds.

The only other suggestion he had, was building a drinking place for birds. It could be the birds in your garden don't need food, but water. Is there any open water in the area?

And it seems they do put some other fruit in to protect crops. It's not unusual to see tall bushes with plenty of berries around patches of strawberries, for instance.

But none of this is a miracle. Firefies, fi, reduce fruit losses from birds by half...

 

[Tubetec]

I didnt bother to read the blow by blow exchange above to closely , what i will say is every terrain has its own unique farming tricks to give a little extra advantage against nature , its not just man against bug but fungus drought or any other quirk of nature that could spoil your crop . Theres rotation which helps keep the fertillity and soil condition good for next seasons alternate crop , in the modern age you can call in the A.I. brigade to jerk off your prize bull and make all the females in the herd pregnant , of course selective breeding was always the key to our various different breeds of cow , thats been going on since we threw down the rocks and spears and learned to farm , lessons are hard learned and easily remembered through the generations .

The rolling hills all around this town are pure gold at the moment , the finest barley and other grains as far as the eye can see , its no coincidence the whiskey industry based itself here , a prettgood example of a symbiosis with nature although the grain industry probably does use its fair share of chemical warfare to get the job done .

 

[Tubetec]

Another excellent example of a man-animal-plant symbiosis is a tribe in West Africa , the men sit around under canopy puffing out big clouds of smoke from the chillums , when it comes time to bring home the food a guy slaps on the water with a paddle , a friendly pod of dolphins shows up and herds the shoals of fish right into their nets ,the entire village and the dolphins have full bellies . Its a good deal all round although its probably still big mama who has to walk to the well for water .

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Yeah, but tell us, do you know which species of birds are eating your fruit?

Here's a basic list of birds in the eastern US that will eat fruit. I have seen at least nine of these species in my yard and forest. I'm sure JR can count a similar number.

(edit-forgot to include the link)

https://www.thespruce.com/birds-that-eat-fruit-including-apples-385829

Some, like the Jackstraw are very hard to keep away. A friend calls them the "engineers" cause when they set their mind to it, they'll get into anything. I've seen them picking away at a steel fireplace chimney grid. took 'em months to get in. And the only reason was to start a nest in there.

Never heard of a jackstraw. Around here the most intelligent birds are corvids (crows, ravens, and jays), though mockingbirds aren't far behind.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Ah. Perhaps you meant "jackdaw" which are European corvids smaller than American crows and ravens.

 

[Tubetec]

Analog ,
You dismissed out of hand Cyranos assertion that we might have the possibility to modify an animals behaviour in our interest ,were already doing that for the last few million years of human evolution , if we didnt do we'd still be cavemen .

Nevermind CD's I think sonic deterents were shown to be quite effective in the case of preventing cats from straying into peoples gardens to de-faeciate. Its easy to audition up raptor calls from nature videos
Be easy to try out with a small guitar amp in the garden , all the small birds will be scared stiff with fear , you might end up clearing a block or two if you gave it enough on the volume control .

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Analog ,
You dismissed out of hand Cyranos assertion that we might have the possibility to modify an animals behaviour in our interest ,were already doing that for the last few million years of human evolution , if we didnt do we'd still be cavemen .

Humans have, with great effort, been able to train certain birds of prey (falconry), a few corvids, parrots, cockatoo, etc. The only other modifications are fear of humans and seeking out food sources provided by humans (be it our gardens or bird feeders). How many more millennia should we expect this aviary training to take?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yeah, but tell us, do you know which species of birds are eating your fruit?

no, two dead ones, but I didn't inspect them closely. I have multiple different kinds of birds around. They don't generally bother me, but this year was worse than usual.

Some, like the Jackstraw are very hard to keep away. A friend calls them the "engineers" cause when they set their mind to it, they'll get into anything. I've seen them picking away at a steel fireplace chimney grid. took 'em months to get in. And the only reason was to start a nest in there.

In your garden, old CDs are probably the best suggestion yet. I talked to a pro and he suggested "Fireflies". This is a commercial variant of the CD idea. He also told me that having taller trees surrounding your small fruit trees is like an "invitation to lunch" for birds.

The only other suggestion he had, was building a drinking place for birds. It could be the birds in your garden don't need food, but water. Is there any open water in the area?

And it seems they do put some other fruit in to protect crops. It's not unusual to see tall bushes with plenty of berries around patches of strawberries, for instance.

But none of this is a miracle. Firefies, fi, reduce fruit losses from birds by half...

Firefies? Do you mean lightning bugs? I introduced a bunch of ladybugs a couple years ago because they eat aphids or something like that.
===
Bringing more food to the party to get rid of pests, is likely to attract even more pests. Sounds like a government plan.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Fireflies is the name of the commercial product in Holland. It's reflective, turns in the wind, red-yellow and could be replaced with CD's.

I am beginning to think the drought might makes it worse. So a bird bath/drinking spot could be something to test?

Ladybugs don't eat, but their larvae eat thousands of aphids each. They also look remarkably different from a ladybug. Lots of people like ladybugs, but are scared of the larvae.

Bringing more food to the party to get rid of pests, is likely to attract even more pests. Sounds like a government plan.

It does, doesn't it.

But sometimes, odd things work. I just reintroduced manual weeding in a municipal maintenance service. Herbicides haven't been used for a number of years now, so weeds were removed either with a gasburner, or by shuffling. Neither is as effective as manual weeding. It looks old-fashioned, but it works.

The work force didn't like it the first year, but now they understand it's less work for them and the effect lasts much longer, provided you can uproot the weeds. It's also far less dangerous than the gas-burner. One of them succeeded in burning a hedge (fire services needed) before noon and a woorden barn-door in the afternoon.

Of course, there's also the effect that the citizens aren't used to it, so they get snarky remarks sometimes.

Birds aren't pests. I talked to another commercial cherry grower yesterday, and he doesn't use nets to stop birds. It's effective allright, but leads to insect pests because insect eating birds no longer can perform their function...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Fireflies is the name of the commercial product in Holland. It's reflective, turns in the wind, red-yellow and could be replaced with CD's.

I did a web search using both spellings you posted... no luck... (I do not use google these days).

It does, doesn't it.

we agree...

Birds aren't pests. I talked to another commercial cherry grower yesterday, and he doesn't use nets to stop birds. It's effective allright, but leads to insect pests because insect eating birds no longer can perform their function...

Birds eating my produce and dying in my bird nets are pretty much being pests.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Our relationship with the plants and animals around us is constantly evolving , it has to , things like weather shift and crops that once did well are no longer viable , same to some extent with the species we farm and even the wild life that surounds us . We know well by now unleashing non native species in a place ,no matter how good an idea it seems can have serious repercussions down the line ,changing the balance of native species can have equally profound effects on other flora and fauna .

I had a grove of apple and other fruit and nut bearing bushes where I used live , I found someones purple and red cockatoo feasting on wild blackberries in my garden , I enquired with my local shop keeper and sure enough he knew the people involved , he told me they went away on holidays around the same time every summer , they let the Parrot off on his own holiday ,to fly around the neighbour hood gobbling berries . Obviously such a brightly coloured bird had to be carefull , he didnt really fly much in the open just moved quickly from one hedge to the next .

Theres no doubt in my mind , using the various decoys , silhouettes and sonic deterents you could clear the area of small birds very effectively , I never said there wouldnt be a downside to it though , nature is a bit like a Jenga puzzle , we can pull many rungs on the ladder away before the real scale of damage becomes apparent .

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I would note that many of the fruit and vegetable plants you might wish to protect are also non-native species. Oopsie.

 

[cyrano]

I did a web search using both spellings you posted... no luck... (I do not use google these days).

There's a pic of it on top of this study:

https://edepot.wur.nl/345488
I don't think it's even sold outside of The Netherlands.

we agree...

Birds eating my produce and dying in my bird nets are pretty much being pests.

JR

Words, words. I'm seeing "pests" as big problems. I suppose you won't starve without your fruits. It would be different if they'd destroy the trees.