Re-wilding

[JohnRoberts]

I don't think it's even sold outside of The Netherlands.

OK. I actually don't want to buy one

Words, words. I'm seeing "pests" as big problems.

More of a problem for them (dying and all) than for me. I just don't like watching them die, and cleaning up the bird corpses.

I suppose you won't starve without your fruits.

You are almost too clever... but I could afford to eat less, like lots of people.

It would be different if they'd destroy the trees.

What? You care about the trees but not human's ....

OK I guess that explains some more.

JR

 

[cyrano]

What? You care about the trees but not human's ....

OK I guess that explains some more.

Humans need a healthy planet to live on. We can't survive without all the other species. And there are far too many of us to look at the individual anyways.

I'm sorry, but you and I are expendable. That's one of the reasons we (as a species) seem unable to stop killing our own kind. And many other species.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Words, words. I'm seeing "pests" as big problems. I suppose you won't starve without your fruits. It would be different if they'd destroy the trees.

Not your trees, not your property, not your country, not your business.

I'm reminded of a C.S. Lewis quote:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

 

[Tubetec]

"those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals." , lets face it today if someone stood up and said the above there would be uproar . Theres a kind of hubris , I guess it exists everywhere in small pockets , it says no matter what we do ,as humans ,were right , because were fundamentally 'better' and more important than all of the rest of the creatures .

'Not your trees, not your property, not your country, not your business.' I'll bet the native Americans feel exactly the same about it .

Ratpack,
If you persist in being belligerent to people who are only putting forward their point of view in a dignified manner , I will continue to take your arguments ,turn them upside down and shove them back up the hole they dropped out of .

Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither.
CS Lewis .

 

[AnalogPackrat]

"those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals." , lets face it today if someone stood up and said the above there would be uproar .

Not from me and not from many others who are tired of the hubris of the moral busybody class.

Theres a kind of hubris , I guess it exists everywhere in small pockets , it says no matter what we do ,as humans ,were right , because were fundamentally 'better' and more important than all of the rest of the creatures .

That would be a gross assumption on your part about those who disagree with you. I'm environmentally conscious. Have been vegetarian for 31 years as a result. I make decisions about my rural property from the longer term perspective that I'm the current steward and that I should leave it in better condition than when I acquired it.

I don't brush hog in spring and summer when birds are nesting. I leave the vast majority of animals alone. I am doing battle with some highly invasive kudzu on one corner of my 8 acre forest and also honeysuckle everywhere.

'Not your trees, not your property, not your country, not your business.' I'll bet the native Americans feel exactly the same about it .

I'm sure they did and do. Ireland has been ruled and conquered wholly and in part multiple times in recorded history, has it not? How is the plight of the Celts different from what happened to Native Americans? In modern democratic societies, property rights are one of the cornerstones of liberty. Having a foreigner who isn't familiar with flora, fauna, climate, or growing conditions in this region constantly judging and nagging a property owner about his choices is hubris.

Ratpack,
I you persist in being belligerent to people who are only putting forward their point of view in a dignified manner , I will continue to take your arguments ,turn them upside down and shove them back up the hole they dropped out of .

When I see weak arguments based on ignorance, assumption, and authoritarianism (knowing what's best for others thousands of miles away), I will continue to respond using my mental faculties and in the manner of my choosing. Disagreement and direct language are not belligerence. You are free to argue your perspective.

"Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort."

--Robert Heinlein

 

[scott2000]

I'll bet the native Americans feel exactly the same about it .

Lots of interesting things when looking at what some are saying. Wonder if they are divided amongst themselves like the rest of us. Be fascinating to find out actually.

 

[JohnRoberts]

But what about Eve getting Adam to bite that apple?

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Good question Scott ,
I know that some tribes are very much better off than others , I guess to some extent it was luck if a tribe ended up on lands with resources , if it had been known before hand the mineral rights would probably have been aquired by the land owning classes . Many tribes were moved off their traditional lands for this reason and their does exist a sense of injustice and inequality over that.

Dublin, Irelands capitol city was established by Vikings along the banks of the river Liffey, their long boats with a shallow draught could easliy make it up the great rivers , right into the belly . The landmarks of this period of time were round towers , usually built around monasteries , in the event of a raid the most valuable items were taken up into the tower for safe keeping . Subsequent to the Vikings we had about 800 years of British rule here , this year is the centenary of the foundation of the Irish state . Certain areas of the country ,due to geography were difficult or impossible for the Brits to police or control . There remains of a large swamp/delta west of Cork city , its innundated with water now due to the contstruction of two dams on the river Lee , in the bad old days of empire British soldiers and RIC(Royal Irish Constabulary) men knew if they ventured into the delta they'd probably never see the light of day again . Its no surprise the rebel spirit is still strong in that area . At best the Brits could hope to keep a lid on trouble in the cities or garrison towns , local knowledge of the more mountainous terrain and wooded regions meant they never got a hold . In a handfull of these wild places the Irish language (Gaelige) still remains the everyday mother tongue . Many attempts by the crown to 'plant' Ireland with its own citizens failed ,the province of Ulster being the exception .

So anyway Im still glad I started this topic ,I know Ive plenty to learn about the world .

 

[JohnRoberts]

Good question Scott ,
I know that some tribes are very much better off than others , I guess to some extent it was luck if a tribe ended up on lands with resources , if it had been known before hand the mineral rights would probably have been aquired by the land owning classes . Many tribes were moved off their traditional lands for this reason and their does exist a sense of injustice and inequality over that.

Dublin, Irelands capitol city was established by Vikings along the banks of the river Liffey, their long boats with a shallow draught could easliy make it up the great rivers , right into the belly . The landmarks of this period of time were round towers , usually built around monasteries , in the event of a raid the most valuable items were taken up into the tower for safe keeping . Subsequent to the Vikings we had about 800 years of British rule here , this year is the centenary of the foundation of the Irish state . Certain areas of the country ,due to geography were difficult or impossible for the Brits to police or control . There remains of a large swamp/delta west of Cork city , its innundated with water now due to the contstruction of two dams on the river Lee , in the bad old days of empire British soldiers and RIC(Royal Irish Constabulary) men knew if they ventured into the delta they'd probably never see the light of day again . Its no surprise the rebel spirit is still strong in that area . At best the Brits could hope to keep a lid on trouble in the cities or garrison towns , local knowledge of the more mountainous terrain and wooded regions meant they never got a hold . In a handfull of these wild places the Irish language (Gaelige) still remains the everyday mother tongue . Many attempts by the crown to 'plant' Ireland with its own citizens failed ,the province of Ulster being the exception .

So anyway Im still glad I started this topic ,I know Ive plenty to learn about the world .

most tribal wealth these days comes from gambling. As restrictions against gambling get relaxed the Tribal franchises may lose some value.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

But werent the tribes also duped into preparing non schedualed weapons of war as their lands werent considered US territory, they were exempt from the Feds poking their beaks in ,perfect get out of jail card for the black budgeteers , ever get the feeling the agencies of the state supposed to protect and serve sometimes end up working at cross purposes and feeding people into the meat grinder , yeah? same shit here only under a different flag .

 

[JohnRoberts]

But werent the tribes also duped into preparing non schedualed weapons of war as their lands werent considered US territory, they were exempt from the Feds poking their beaks in ,perfect get out of jail card for the black budgeteers , ever get the feeling the agencies of the state supposed to protect and serve sometimes end up working at cross purposes and feeding people into the meat grinder , yeah? same shit here only under a different flag .

The history of the world is rife with examples of dominant cultures abusing weaker ones.... We should be cautious about contact with extraterrestrials as we are unlikely to be the dominant one in that relationship.

JR

 

[scott2000]

The history of the world is rife with examples of dominant cultures abusing weaker ones

Was browsing around a Native American thread and someone posted a picture/meme that had 4 Indian Chiefs/Elders standing in front of Mt. Rushmore with the caption "The Real Founding Fathers"

.....one of the comments was "lmao. That's adorable. Now go cry harder sore loser"

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Was browsing around a Native American thread and someone posted a picture/meme that had 4 Indian Chiefs/Elders standing in front of Mt. Rushmore with the caption "The Real Founding Fathers"

.....one of the comments was "lmao. That's adorable. Now go cry harder sore loser"

How terribly human-centric. Sabertooth cats, Mastodon, and dire wolf were here before any humans.

 

[cyrano]

Every time you think they can't sink any deeper they tend to amaze you...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Every time you think they can't sink any deeper they tend to amaze you...

Explain what is wrong with my borrowed logic. Were animals that were likely hunted to extinction by humans in pre-historic North America not as important to the ecosystem of that time as wild birds and squirrels of our current era?

 

[scott2000]

lol

 

[cyrano]

Explain what is wrong with my borrowed logic. Were animals that were likely hunted to extinction by humans in pre-historic North America not as important to the ecosystem of that time as wild birds and squirrels of our current era?

Which animals exactly?

It's very hard to tell sometimes if animals were hunted to extinction by mankind, or if they just died out because of evolution. The Dodo, fi was driven into extinction by mankind. Other species, like most insects that vanished, could be evolution.

So it's hard to tell how much influence mankind has had in history. The Mammoth could have been hunted to extinction, but it could also have vanished because of the end of the ice age.

In general, I believe it's all interlocked and every species is equally important. But that's a belief...

In any case, evolution doesn't need logic. The most successful species survives at the cost of lesser successful ones. In that case, human kind might be too successful. Which lands us in the "suicide gene" area.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Which animals exactly?

Read the "Extinction" section of this Wikipedia article and be enlightened.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelops

It's very hard to tell sometimes if animals were hunted to extinction by mankind, or if they just died out because of evolution. The Dodo, fi was driven into extinction by mankind. Other species, like most insects that vanished, could be evolution.

Do more research.

So it's hard to tell how much influence mankind has had in history. The Mammoth could have been hunted to extinction, but it could also have vanished because of the end of the ice age.

There are many extinctions in the Holocene besides the woolly mammoth. Again, try doing some basic research.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_animals_extinct_in_the_Holocene
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_extinction_event#Hunting_hypothesis

In general, I believe it's all interlocked and every species is equally important. But that's a belief...

That was not my question. If we can blame modern humans for killing birds, squirrels, etc. and then make the judgement that humans are the problem, then must we not make the same judgement relative to Native Americans? When modern humans encountered the less advanced (yes, I said it) civilizations of the New World and effectively replaced them with their own, how is that different from what the first humans to discover and inhabit the Americas did to local flora and fauna guven that we're all equally important in your view?

Is it not true that humans have intenionally and unintentionally modified Earth's ecosystems, atmosphere, etc for millenia? If so, then how can you excuse what more primitive human cultures have done in the past?

In any case, evolution doesn't need logic. The most successful species survives at the cost of lesser successful ones. In that case, human kind might be too successful. Which lands us in the "suicide gene" area.

No, mutations that tend to give advantage have a higher probability to be passed on than others. There is no guarantee that every "better" mutation will survive. If by "suicide gene" you mean socialism, communism, authoritarianism, then I might agree, but somehow I doubt that you do.

 

[cyrano]

Camelops' extinction is a hypothesis. Just like a lot of other extinction stories. Where's the enlightenment?

There's literally NOTHING in your reading list that supports either side of the story.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Camelops' extinction is a hypothesis. Just like a lot of other extinction stories.

The same goes for climate change and the rest.

Where's the enlightenment?

Your flame is yours to light.

There's literally NOTHING in your reading list that supports either side of the story.

Read it again.