Real Mic from a Chinese Toy

[Guest]

[quote author="uk03878"]Not this time
Sorry Sir for breaking your forum rules[/quote]

It is Ok. I am interested in feedback about sound sample. Please don't pay attention on a background noise, I needed to charge battery on notebook, also room heater was working, so some noises present. I am interested if you still hear that "chinses harsh on highs" on the sample.

Here it is again:

http://wavebourn.com/male_sample.mp3

 

[ioaudio]

voice sounds a bit nasal and yes - trebles sound a bit harsh (might be the reverb/eq)
but it would be easier to judge if you record a close up voice without any effects.

 

[Marik]

[quote author="Svart"]
Since most chinese capsules are knockoffs of the u87 type of capsule, most capsules have that high end hype that the rolloff circuit takes care of..
[/quote]

The MXL770 is a SD (the 603, etc. capsule), which is made to look like a LD. The brass ring changes the pressure-gradient, so the high end has more roll off, apart from directivity pattern changes.


As for the sample, to me it sounds kinda artificial. I am not sure if it is because of wrong capsule choice, electronics, or processing.

 

[Guest]

Thanks!

What about this sample?

http://wavebourn.com/male_sample_2.mp3

The question is, I do not hear anymore that harsh "broken glass highs". Do you?

 

[Marik]

Very good baritone, excellent singing. Piano sounds like a balalayka. Was it upright or baby-grand? Was the pianist just sight-reading or is it how far his/hers accompaning/pianistical skills can go?

The recording is mismatched, where the piano (besides its funny sound) has much more reverberation than voice (and the voice has too much to start with) and together they sound curiously artificial.
I am not sure what kind of room did you have, but it seems that the recording was made with a close miking and then you were forced to use lotsa reverberation.

It is hard to say something more specific as I don't know how the source sounds or at least how it'd sound with the mics and electronics I know. If you made a simultaneous recording with something well known like, let's say, U87 on one channel and your mic on another, placed in close proximity, it'd be much more telling.

I cannot answer if I hear any harshness because I hear all kind of other different things, most of all--wrong miking and mastering techniques. I believe, a skillfull sound engineering is much more important than type or source of distortions. I heard very good piano recordings made with... excuse me... AKG C1000.

I am not sure if that's what you wanted to hear...

 

[Guest]

It indeed was an upright "balalaika" in a living room recorded using Shure SM-58, it was a home concert in my friend's house.

Sorry Marik, I did not ask for your judgements about how to record and mix in complex field conditions. If you don't hear so called "chinese harsh highs", they don't exist anymore.

Thanks to everybody who helped.

PS: He is not a baritone, he is a famous bass Sergey Zadvorny. Pianist was a famous concertmeister Tatyana Scott. I'll tell them your opinion.

 

[Marik]

[quote author="Wavebourn"]Sorry Marik, I did not ask for your judgements about how to record and mix in complex field conditions. [/quote]

Sorry, I guess, whether I did not understand your question, or you just did not understand my answer.

[quote author="Wavebourn"]
PS: He is not a baritone, he is a famous bass Sergey Zadvorny. Pianist was a famous concertmeister Tatyana Scott. I'll tell them your opinion. [/quote]

Please do, if it will make them happy :grin:
And my best regards to Tatyana. Hopefully, at least she is a hotty :wink:

If you don't hear so called "chinese harsh highs", they don't exist anymore.

I am wondering though, what made me think he was a baritone :shock:.

I know this aria pretty well and have accompanied it many times myself to both, bass and baritone singers, so I should know... I guess...
Or do my ears start playing tricks on me? :shock: :wink:

 

[burdij]

I would say that the singer's microphone is somewhat deficient in the bass in the region of 100-300 Hz. This emphasizes the mid-band. There is some distortion in the highs that is noticable on loud passages but it is not in the so-called "chinese harsh highs" 10KHz region. I would put it in the 4-5 KHz range. That would lead me to believe that it could be an artifact from some other part of the recording chain, up to and including the headphones I am using. Overall, the microphone sounds a bit on the dull side. This would indicate a lack of response in the critical articulation band from 6-8KHz. It is not faithfully giving us a picture of the singer's voice which must be quite fine. The balalika/piano, to use the words of Billy Joel, "sounds like a carnival". It is also, in part, out of tune. The SM58 wouldn't be my go-to mike for the piano. This mike has a very tilted frequency response curve going from 50Hz to only about 14-15KHz which artificially pre-emphasizes the highs. The player is magnificient.

 

[Guest]

Thank you a lot!

Actually, I was concerned about 4-8 kHz regione, that's why LC correction on 9 KHz would be better than just 6db/oct with one cap. I'll try 220 nF instead of 330 nF and post results. After that improvised concert in the living room we decided to record seriously for CD using well prepared environment.

That time everything was tuned for the sound in the room, it sounded great, even with a cheap piano my friend's son uses to practice and only SM-58 we had for it (another modified MXL770 was used for a guitar). Anyway, Tatyana managed somehow to use it, she is the master. :wink:
Level of reverberation was Ok, since Sergey's voice is powerful and magnificient without any microphones. However, the level of reverberation is too high recorded from direct output from the console.

Let's go further with trials and errors. Anyway, the "chinese sound" gone.

To be continued! :grin:

 

[Guest]

[quote author="Marik"]

The MXL770 is a SD (the 603, etc. capsule), which is made to look like a LD. The brass ring changes the pressure-gradient, so the high end has more roll off, apart from directivity pattern changes.
[/quote]

High end is a comb, the first peak starts from around 9.5 KHz. However, it will be hard to match mechanical to electrical resonances, but it seems to me I will have to implement LC equalization finally, despite of absence of convenient way to measure acoustical parameters... I believe I can force it to be flat up to 16 KHz.

PS: I wander, how do they equalize combs on shotgun-type directional microphones?

 

[Marik]

[quote author="Wavebourn"][quote author="Marik"]

The MXL770 is a SD (the 603, etc. capsule), which is made to look like a LD. The brass ring changes the pressure-gradient, so the high end has more roll off, apart from directivity pattern changes.
[/quote]

High end is a comb, the first peak starts from around 9.5 KHz. However, it will be hard to match mechanical to electrical resonances, but it seems to me I will have to implement LC equalization finally, despite of absence of convenient way to measure acoustical parameters... I believe I can force it to be flat up to 16 KHz.

PS: I wander, how do they equalize combs on shotgun-type directional microphones?[/quote]

To some extent the cavity resonances most likely smooth out the comb effect. Nevertherless, because of brass jobbie it is a comb of rather LD, while in fact, the capsule is a SD. In any case, IMO, the grill has more effect, esp in 4k-8k range.

I am surprised why would you use this mic for voice. To me it just sounds like a wrong application.
Not sure if you need my suggestions, but something like an $89 SP B1, which has a nice 797 LD capsule would be a much better choice, and your circuit would be perfectly happy with that one. If you don't like a silver-satin finish just use some hammertone spray on it.

It seems, this particular voice would sound real good with a good ribbon about 2-3 feet away--deep and natural. You will need to have a good room, though.

PS: Have you ever seen a "HI-FI" shotgun mic for a serious music recording? :wink:

 

[Guest]

[quote author="Marik"] In any case, IMO, the grill has more effect, esp in 4k-8k range.

[/quote]

How?
Simple calculations reveal that it would impact on lower frequencies, it is about 1.5 cm from the capsule and the surface is curved. The grill is soft enough and don't ring.

[quote author="Marik"]
PS: Have you ever seen a "HI-FI" shotgun mic for a serious music recording? :wink:[/quote]

Never!

But it does not mean it is technically impossible. :wink:

PS: I've modified mics decreasing time constants of equalization networks, now going to record myself to test. I expect a slight peak on 9.5 KHz again, but 4-8K range should be affected less. Let's try...

 

[Guest]

Ok,
I've recorded a sample with 20nF equalizing capacitors. Please criticize. However, I am not a singer, nor my living room is a studio, but it is enough to hear the sound of mics directly connected to a notebook.

It seems to be that 4-8K frequencies are better now, but some peak on 9.5K reapeared back.

http://wavebourn.com/20nf_sample.mp3

 

[Guest]

Bingo!

Adding one more transistor I've implemented 12 dB/oct HPF on 30 Hz (thanks for that idea from German patent in a parallel thread!). Now I can boost lows using proximity effect but avoid pops. Nice! :thumb:

 

[Guest]

[quote author="Marik"] In any case, IMO, the grill has more effect, esp in 4k-8k range.
[/quote]

I've discovered the truth in your statement, I bought 2 more MXL 770 mics, and indeed they ring. Grills are made of a different material!!!

Will Plastidip help?

 

[Marik]

[quote author="Wavebourn"][quote author="Marik"] In any case, IMO, the grill has more effect, esp in 4k-8k range.
[/quote]

I've discovered the truth in your statement, I bought 2 more MXL 770 mics, and indeed they ring. Grills are made of a different material!!!

Will Plastidip help?[/quote]

Really depends which part rings (body or mesh) and what is the Q. I'd try it first without grill at all and see how it affects things. You don't have to screen this capsule to get rid of noise, as it already has a mesh in front of diaphragm.

 

[Guest]

[quote author="Marik"][quote author="Wavebourn"][quote author="Marik"] In any case, IMO, the grill has more effect, esp in 4k-8k range.
[/quote]

I've discovered the truth in your statement, I bought 2 more MXL 770 mics, and indeed they ring. Grills are made of a different material!!!

Will Plastidip help?[/quote]

Really depends which part rings (body or mesh) and what is the Q. I'd try it first without grill at all and see how it affects things. You don't have to screen this capsule to get rid of noise, as it already has a mesh in front of diaphragm.[/quote]

I mean, when I knock a grill it rings. I've sprayed a layer of Plastidip outside, will spray one inside and check again. Defenitely it will damp a bit, but I would prefer to have something like a liquid linoleum spray to damp metal surfaces, or replace it with some copper, or at least as less carbonated as possible steel...

First couple of mics had definitely better material that's why I got nice mics easily. I thought they've made a big party of mis-designed mics then discovered errors, but seems to me they don't understand what they are manufacturing and continue to make more parties of a crap... Thanks, I have very good mics made from cheap toys...

 

[Guest]

Hmmm... Before it ringed like an empty bucket, after applying Plastidip it sounds like a bucket with a water...

 

[Marik]

[quote author="Wavebourn"]
I mean, when I knock a grill it rings. [/quote]

Sure, anything would ring. But it is not always a bad thing. For example, at least 50% of U47 sound is the grill, and it is considered a good mic .
That's why I suggested to try first without grill at all to see if you like it better.

Usually, I damp the body with adhesive backed strips of linoleum. I never tried Plastidip, but it might work, as well.
As you definitely know, to kill resonances (or to lower the freq.) we need to apply lotsa low Q mass.

 

[Guest]

[quote author="Marik"][quote author="Wavebourn"]
I mean, when I knock a grill it rings. [/quote]

For example, at least 50% of U47 sound is the grill, and it is considered a good mic .
[/quote]

It is when "the size matters" :green:
At least, I know what freqs to tune to... :wink:

That's why I suggested to try first without grill at all to see if you like it better.

It may sound cleaner, but anyway I need a good mechanical protection. Last time one lady suggested help and dropped a mic on a floor. Also, teared bag of silica-gel was found in a storage box once...

Usually, I damp the body with adhesive backed strips of linoleum. I never tried Plastidip, but it might work, as well.

Indeed, it is the best material to damp surface resonances I ever found, especially if to compare to all patented dampers. Tomorrow I will experiment with a magical clay (linoleum in a coffee mill)