Republican Propaganda

[dmp]

I am pleased to see than many of you have a fair grasp on this.

#1 The title of this thread is inflammatory, aka "poisoning the well" to bias perception of what follows.

The title was intentional - influenced by the snarky "question for those on the left" thread which wasn't even about an issue, just an inflammatory, childish post.  How about the "how is this not racist" thread about a Democratic mayor? You want the brewery to only have that garbage on the conservative side? I was trying to bring a little balance.

In reality, I think Republican propoganda HAS been weaponized and it's led to Trump's success. It's been a deal with the devil, imo.  Democrats are far less effective at this and it's hurt them.

#2 both political parties are less than forthcoming, not to mention the elephant in the room, the law breakers making illegal crossings, and those helping them (like coyotes, drug traffickers, and even the country of Mexico).

Both political parties are conflicted about illegal immigration for many reasons, largely business / financial:
-  businesses depend on illegal immigrants for cheap wages, construction, etc 
- rich people get there houses cleaned, childcare, etc by illegal immigrants

There is a solid block of people (lower income, lost jobs) in the USA that are fed up with it though and Trump is going all out against illegal immigration. He is using cruelty against children and families in terrible situations to force the hand of Congress.
If he really wants to change illegal immegration, he should crack down on businesses. Punitive fines, inspections, etc.. Implement regulations that make it financially not worth it to employ illegal / undocomented immigrants.  That, however, would go against his mindset (i.e. cutting regulation, being business friendly). HE EVEN EMPLOYED illegal immigrants in his businesses!!!

Cannot separate his tough (cruel) stance here from his behavior in NK recently though, expressing envy for a dictatorship (praising Kim, saluting a general, wishing he were respected like kim by his people - the actual quotes are terrible).

#3 the law involved could be changed by congress quickly if they wanted to, but both parties think they can use this emotional story to throw shade on the other party to influence the Nov vote.

Immigration reform has failed many times. Republicans hold all three branches and can't agree among themselves, which has been crystal clear. Blaming Democrats is 100% disingenuous. But yet Republicans are doing so.

#4 media coverage has already demonstrated that they are not trustworthy (using old photos, etc). Everybody understands the emotional power of images, but fake (old) images just damage any trust in media to be honest truth tellers.

This is the effect of the Republican propaganda machine. undermining the real news is a key objective of a manipulative propaganda campaign.  Fox news commentator Tucker Carlson: "always assume the opposite of whatever they're telling you on the big news stations"

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/392600-tucker-carlson-criticized-for-warning-viewers-to-assume-the-opposite-in-news

Finding a few 'straw men' and then shouting about them relentlessly to undermine the real facts, i.e. one photo. In the past, it's been discovered that conservative media actually planted the 'bad' news in order to set up these straw men propaganda attacks.

#5  This reminds me of the abortion fight. The emotional appeal focuses on killing unborn children while the real problem is unwanted pregnancy. This "family break up" theme is engineered to make a similar emotional appeal to the abortion argument's dead babies.  No right thinking person is in favor of breaking up families or killing babies, but don't forget this just a political manipulation (ignore the man behind the curtain).

Exactly, keep the sheeple focuses on divisive social issues while the corrupt leaders pass a huge tax cut in their own favor, set up crony gov. to benefit their own investments,  undermine environmental regulation to increase business profit, etc.
It's all about money to the Republican swamp dwellers.

#6 there is a vital difference between being called ignorant and evil. If the opposition is only ignorant you can keep talking to them to hopefully educate them. If the opposition are evil, talking is pointless, and playing dirty (whatever it takes) is OK.

I think the facts are sufficient in some cases to label people 'evil'. Keep paying attention to the real news about Trump and maybe you will get there too.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The title was intentional - influenced by the snarky "question for those on the left" thread which wasn't even about an issue, just an inflammatory, childish post.  How about the "how is this not racist" thread about a Democratic mayor? You want the brewery to only have that garbage on the conservative side? I was trying to bring a little balance.

old two wrongs make a right... :

  BTW I still think De Blasio is racist (based on actions and statements). It looks like SCOTUS may end up reviewing the Harvard lawsuit over admissions bias against Asian-Americans, which could shift admissions policy across the country towards a more merit based criteria (I hope).

In reality, I think Republican propoganda HAS been weaponized and it's led to Trump's success. It's been a deal with the devil, imo.  Democrats are far less effective at this and it's hurt them.

subjective...

Both political parties are conflicted about illegal immigration for many reasons, largely business / financial:
-  businesses depend on illegal immigrants for cheap wages, construction, etc 
- rich people get there houses cleaned, childcare, etc by illegal immigrants

well explored here

There is a solid block of people (lower income, lost jobs) in the USA that are fed up with it though and Trump is going all out against illegal immigration.

unemployment is at record lows, and workplace participation is increasing on top of the low unemployment, perhaps moderating  upward pressure on wages. Some businesses can't find enough workers to hire.

He is using cruelty against children and families in terrible situations to force the hand of Congress.

Indeed the broken immigration system puts many people in harms way.. It needs to be fixed, not ignored. The sausage making is not pretty to watch but how long should we tolerate this broken system?

If he really wants to change illegal immegration, he should crack down on businesses. Punitive fines, inspections, etc.. Implement regulations that make it financially not worth it to employ illegal / undocomented immigrants.  That, however, would go against his mindset (i.e. cutting regulation, being business friendly). HE EVEN EMPLOYED illegal immigrants in his businesses!!!

Indeed the laws must be enforced. I won't debate things we can't possibly know (like his personal motivations).

Cannot separate his tough (cruel) stance here from his behavior in NK recently though, expressing envy for a dictatorship (praising Kim, saluting a general, wishing he were respected like kim by his people - the actual quotes are terrible).

you never met a car salesman trying to close the deal? His negotiation style has gotten us this far. Still a very long way to go.

ironic to watch the left flip-flop... angry when President Trump cancelled the NK meeting, now angry when he has it.

Immigration reform has failed many times. Republicans hold all three branches and can't agree among themselves, which has been crystal clear. Blaming Democrats is 100% disingenuous. But yet Republicans are doing so.

In fact the democrats ignored fixing immigration when they held a "super majority" during president Obamas first two years. The republicans do not have a super majority now, but could if the public gets tired of the democratic obstructionism.

This is the effect of the Republican propaganda machine. undermining the real news is a key objective of a manipulative propaganda campaign.  Fox news commentator Tucker Carlson: "always assume the opposite of whatever they're telling you on the big news stations"

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/392600-tucker-carlson-criticized-for-warning-viewers-to-assume-the-opposite-in-news

another show I can't watch... Tucker likes to argue too much for my taste. Lots of heat not much light. I guess there is an audience for that, like professional wrestling with words.

Finding a few 'straw men' and then shouting about them relentlessly to undermine the real facts, i.e. one photo. In the past, it's been discovered that conservative media actually planted the 'bad' news in order to set up these straw men propaganda attacks.
Exactly, keep the sheeple focuses on divisive social issues while the corrupt leaders pass a huge tax cut in their own favor, set up crony gov. to benefit their own investments,  undermine environmental regulation to increase business profit, etc.
It's all about money to the Republican swamp dwellers.
I think the facts are sufficient in some cases to label people 'evil'. Keep paying attention to the real news about Trump and maybe you will get there too.

Methinks you doth protest too much... I hope you can calm down.  I hope we can all calm down. Politics is as angry as I can remember in my brief ( : )  lifetime.  May have been worse in past history, but not recently.

JR

 

[dmp]

old two wrongs make a right... :

Another good debate tactic. Expect your opponent to hold to higher standards than you do.  The Republican propaganda machine has used this very effectively. The Republican side uses insults and mis-truths/ lies but if the 'liberal' side does, cry foul.

The 'mainstream' media has been played by this to incredible lengths. They bend over backwards to appear unbiased, while conservative media (such as Fox news) has no problem with mistruths, bias, and lowering the level of discourse.

  BTW I still think De Blasio is racist (based on actions and statements). It looks like SCOTUS may end up reviewing the Harvard lawsuit over admissions bias against Asian-Americans, which could shift admissions policy across the country towards a more merit based criteria (I hope).

Well, I think Trump is racist. In a far more significant and evil way. If anything, De Blasio's accused racism stems from a misguided attempt for equality in education. While Trump's stems from his own greed, insecurity / superiority, and pettiness. Trump's racism is meant to hurt people that are already beat down.

unemployment is at record lows, and workplace participation is increasing on top of the low unemployment, perhaps moderating  upward pressure on wages. Some businesses can't find enough workers to hire.

What happened to the conspiracy theory about the manipulated job numbers? 93 million Americans not working? (Trump quote)


Although politics has been pretty ugly for decades, never before has a US President so blatantly lied, insulted, and mocked in public statements. Trump has lowered the discourse (starting well before he became President) and pushed the whole US in a bad direction. Before you tell a liberal "two wrongs don't make a right" think about what terrible behavior you've supported.

I hope you can calm down.  I hope we can all calm down. Politics is as angry as I can remember in my brief ( : )  lifetime.  May have been worse in past history, but not recently.

No worries, I'm not angry. (but I would like to point out calling your opponent in a debate angry is another devious tactic).

But I am worried how this will escalate.  Trump and the Republican party has taken a scorched earth approach since Obama was elected. When the pendulum swings back I expect things will get even worse.

 

[dmp]

I think many businesses depend on people in general  for cheap wages, construction, etc....There has always been an acceptance  if immigrants had something to offer and could benefit themselves and the companies they work for but, it wasn't just for paying them cheap labor. They most likely would show up for work and do a good job..

Just being an immigrant doesn't make you valuable to a business. There are  Plenty of people , just like in the US, that  just don't have  the work ethic or skills to be of any help to some and I would argue be a harm to themselves or others... It's reality. And I stress it's not just immigrants. People have the same possible abilities or disabilities when it comes down to it....


Do immigrants. legal or not make less than what any American makes doing the same work??? ...I'd think it would be interesting to ask some of those guys in the parking lots what they are asking for an hourly wage.... If you can find any....  If not, ask some of the immigrants here working on visas..... ...

I think it makes sense that someone working under the table will get paid less than someone who is above board. Might be worth looking for data on it. But adding people to the labor pool generally reduces wages (supply and demand).

My point was it keeps things cheaper - construction prices, cleaning services, etc. You take away those 10-20 million people working undocumented in the US and companies will have to fight for people to replace them. And reportedly, companies are having trouble finding people to fill these kinds of jobs who don't have drug addiction problems. Wages go up, prices go up.

So yeah, good points

 

[boji]

"I want to state my opinion on this, this kind of policy is unworthy of a civilized people, this kind of things always start with a little bit of inhumanity, but can get out of hand fast and uncontrollable and everyone will be very sorry afterwards"

The question is when did this start, punishing people for breaking laws. If I robbed a grocery store for food for my kid, I would still be arrested and possibly incarcerated for theft, and be separated from my children until a verdict was made.

Jeze, NYT front page is COVERED in this issue atm, but the outrage is not coming from some newfound zeitgeist shift of moralism or recent evolutionary compulsion towards being more compassionate. To the general tone of most people's comments about this: I'm in no way promoting a rule that we continue the separation of children from their families at the border, but all the media storm around this is cringeworthy, as the slightest inspection of history will show tribes (countries) have been finding ways to get what they want, your children's tears be damned, since the dawn of time. But the tools of tribalism are NOT going to go away if you insist on posturing in political terms.  Find ways to do what you can to locally reduce people's tears to be sure, talk about the policies in place that allow bad things to happen, but I suggest we stop freighting our moral outrage with political ideology, that is, unless one has an ax to grind, and doesn't mind using any propaganda at one's disposal as a weapon to assert a utopian vision*.

*Those kinds of visions never end well if they get any steam. Think democratic socialist party, Stalin, Mao, Pol pot, DPRK...

Edit: Italicized header quote

 

[pucho812]

The title was intentional - influenced by the snarky "question for those on the left" thread which wasn't even about an issue, just an inflammatory, childish post.  How about the "how is this not racist" thread about a Democratic mayor? You want the brewery to only have that garbage on the conservative side? I was trying to bring a little balance.

I

hardly trying to be inflammatory. Trying to understand.  For example i never understood the constant Obama is evil thing for 8 years.  Yeah he did things I disagreed as does anyone in that position at times.  I never understood the constant negative, hate, etc that goes on. So yeah I asked what the deal was. I also asked the same of those on the right from 2008 - 2016,  do you have a solution?  I find very few who are moaning to no end about the opposition ever have a solution, a plan, or even a suggestion of what to do.  that being said the current border crisis has been a long time coming and lone time in the making.  Yet no one seems to have an answer as to what exactly to do.
As I may have stated previously, the easiest solution is to not come here illegally. It's a dangerous trip to say the least.  But if that is not going to happen,  maybe we should put a consulate somewhere on the Guatemala - mexico border. If it is true that they are mainly south american and  seeking asylum then we can process them and get the paper work in action much closer to the source.

 

[hodad]

The question is when did this start, punishing people for breaking laws. If I robbed a grocery store for food for my kid, I would still be arrested and possibly incarcerated for theft, and be separated from my children until a verdict was made.

It's a bit of a different situation.  Usually (certainly not always), someone who lives in the US & has a kid will have some sort of family or friend support system that can help in some way with taking care of the kid during incarceration.  Someone who's just crossed the border is less likely to have that support in the US, and even if they do, whoever it is may not want to deal with la migra if they can avoid it--especially with the current culture of ICE.  And separating parent and child when neither is documented in the US (ie, SSN, school or medical records) is much more treacherous--too easy for folks, especially litte folks, to fall between the cracks.   

 

[tands]

but all the media storm around this is cringeworthy, as the slightest inspection of history will show tribes (countries) have been finding ways to get what they want, your children's tears be damned, since the dawn of time. But the tools of tribalism are NOT going to go away if you insist on posturing in political terms.  Find ways to do what you can to locally reduce people's tears to be sure, talk about the policies in place that allow bad things to happen, but I suggest we stop freighting our moral outrage with political ideology, that is, unless one has an ax to grind, and doesn't mind using any propaganda at one's disposal as a weapon to assert a utopian vision*.

*Those kinds of visions never end well if they get any steam. Think democratic socialist party, Stalin, Mao, Pol pot, DPRK...

Just quoting, I find this revealing.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Another good debate tactic. Expect your opponent to hold to higher standards than you do.  The Republican propaganda machine has used this very effectively. The Republican side uses insults and mis-truths/ lies but if the 'liberal' side does, cry foul.

I can always hope... but you seem locked into the "propaganda" pejorative.

The 'mainstream' media has been played by this to incredible lengths. They bend over backwards to appear unbiased, while conservative media (such as Fox news) has no problem with mistruths, bias, and lowering the level of discourse.

cough... here do seem to be some serious perspective distortions.

Here's an example from today's WSJ. There is a front page picture of some immigrants in Tijuana, Mexico waiting at a border entry point, accompanying the article about family separations,,, BUT the arrests and resulting family separation (caused by the arrests)  only occur to illegal entrants away from official entry points (I guess they might arrest some known criminal dumb enough to come in through TJ with kids, thinking that will give him a free pass.) 

Well, I think Trump is racist. In a far more significant and evil way. If anything, De Blasio's accused racism stems from a misguided attempt for equality in education. While Trump's stems from his own greed, insecurity / superiority, and pettiness. Trump's racism is meant to hurt people that are already beat down.

opinions  vary

What happened to the conspiracy theory about the manipulated job numbers? 93 million Americans not working? (Trump quote)

I don't know about "conspiracy" but the phenomenon is still intact, and many of those workers who dropped off the unemployment rolls improving unemployment metrics for the last administration are magically now re-entering the work force. This is a good thing and like I suggested helps mitigate what should be incredible labor tightness, based on current unemployment number. Haven't you wondered why wages haven't risen more strongly?

Although politics has been pretty ugly for decades, never before has a US President so blatantly lied, insulted, and mocked in public statements. Trump has lowered the discourse (starting well before he became President) and pushed the whole US in a bad direction. Before you tell a liberal "two wrongs don't make a right" think about what terrible behavior you've supported.

Trump is undeniably a blowhard, but taking his every utterance literally could give you gray hair prematurely. I have long suggested not taking him literally, I don't. As with any politician (and he is learning to be one), I watch what they do, not what they say.  :

No worries, I'm not angry. (but I would like to point out calling your opponent in a debate angry is another devious tactic).

you do sound angry, these do not seem to be calm word choices. 

But I am worried how this will escalate.  Trump and the Republican party has taken a scorched earth approach since Obama was elected. When the pendulum swings back I expect things will get even worse.

Scorched earth? More hyperbolic verbiage.  What do you sound like when you are actually angry?

I have been worried about the lack of civil discourse in modern politics. This is not a recent trend but has been in decline for the last couple decades. Tip O'Neil could turn off the partisan venom after beer o'clock (while I doubt he drank beer). The modern political crew stays in attack mode 24x7.  President Trump has a unique style, that really seems to set some people off (considered a syndrome by some observers), but the general decline of civility in politics is nothing new. 

This forum is an island of tranquility compared to most social media these days. Thank you all.  8)

JR

 

[tands]

As I may have stated previously, the easiest solution is to not come here illegally. It's a dangerous trip to say the least. 

This is just continued intentional ignorance on your part. Mothers with children make this journey because what they are leaving is bad anough to make anything a better option than staying. Figure that out.

 

[tands]

I have been worried about the lack of civil discourse in modern politics. This is not a recent trend but has been in decline for the last couple decades. Tip O'Neil could turn off the partisan venom after beer o'clock (while I doubt he drank beer). The modern political crew stays in attack mode 24x7.  President Trump has a unique style, that really seems to set some people off (considered a syndrome by some observers), but the general decline of civility in politics is nothing new.

Yeah, that's just another tactic. Decry partisanship to cast your own views by implication as non partisan. You are a republican, JR, and a partisan for those views. You ask for civil discourse because nobody but other republicans can tolerate those views and will attack them.

 

[pucho812]

This is just continued intentional ignorance on your part. Mothers with children make this journey because what they are leaving is bad anough to make anything a better option than staying. Figure that out.

no it's not. have you seen said mothers with children? What is the data on that vs minors who are alone?

Also do you have any solutions to the matter? I offered up one idea, in the rest of that quote after the not coming here bit.

 

[JohnRoberts]

hardly trying to be inflammatory. Trying to understand.  For example i never understood the constant Obama is evil thing for 8 years. 

I've already discussed the significance of "evil" characterization... It is code for incorrigible, unredeemable.  A political strategy to keep us angry and not talking.

Yeah he did things I disagreed as does anyone in that position at times.  I never understood the constant negative, hate, etc that goes on.

I guess that depends what echo chamber you were in... President Obama getting the Nobel peace prize didn't seem very hateful.

So yeah I asked what the deal was. I also asked the same of those on the right from 2008 - 2016,  do you have a solution?  I find very few who are moaning to no end about the opposition ever have a solution, a plan, or even a suggestion of what to do.  that being said the current border crisis has been a long time coming and lone time in the making.  Yet no one seems to have an answer as to what exactly to do.

in fact this has been well discussed.

Legislation already passed the house before but couldn't pass the senate without 60 votes.  The house is running this up the flagpole again, so maybe now with all this new publicity, the legislation will get enough democratic votes to pass in the senate, or not.

As I may have stated previously, the easiest solution is to not come here illegally. It's a dangerous trip to say the least.  But if that is not going to happen,  maybe we should put a consulate somewhere on the Guatemala - mexico border. If it is true that they are mainly south american and  seeking asylum then we can process them and get the paper work in action much closer to the source.

In fact a large percentage who go through court hearings get their asylum requests denied.  Wanting a better living/job is not a valid justification for asylum.

Perhaps we need to fix the broken countries they are escaping from en masse, but not easy either.

JR

 

[tands]

As I may have stated previously, the easiest solution is to not come here illegally. It's a dangerous trip to say the least. 

This is just continued intentional ignorance on your part. Mothers with children make this journey because what they are leaving is bad anough to make anything a better option than staying. Figure that out.

no it's not. have you seen said mothers with children? What is the data on that vs minors who are alone?

QED.

 

[boji]

"It's a bit of a different situation.  Usually (certainly not always), someone who lives in the US & has a kid will have some sort of family or friend support system that can help in some way with taking care of the kid during incarceration.  Someone who's just crossed the border is less likely to have that support in the US, and even if they do, whoever it is may not want to deal with la migra if they can avoid it--especially with the current culture of ICE.  And separating parent and child when neither is documented in the US (ie, SSN, school or medical records) is much more treacherous--too easy for folks, especially litte folks, to fall between the cracks. "

True. I appreciate your contextualization.  I would imagine it is a difficult shift to go from  illegal immigrant, fearful of home, fearful of ICE, fearful for your future, to becoming a citizen by legal means, and therefore willing to employ the help of local police and social systems. Add to this I imagine a vast network of 'underground railroad' type support structures that naturally evolve out of basic needs that exist for friends of friends of undocumented workers.  One degree of separation if you're a newly minted,  legit citizen; It's a problem that keeps knocking on the door I imagine, as desperate means will justify itself in all maner of non-law abiding ways.

 

[tands]

Simple solution, stop destroying their countries. The last place they'll want to come is this fascist, racist  hellscape.

 

[pucho812]

  I would imagine it is a difficult shift to go from  illegal immigrant, fearful of home, fearful of ICE, fearful for your future, to becoming a citizen by legal means, and therefore willing to employ the help of local police and social systems. 

The current administration and ICE have clearly stated what they wanted. People in places like california said no, we are sanctuary. So ICE said find we will take everone then vs the criminals.  Blame my state for that.

Simple solution, stop destroying their countries. The last place they'll want to come is this fascist, racist  hellscape.

I can see why they want to come here, it's a pretty good deal.  Where else would the see such action, perhaps in the countries they are leaving? It's funny to see people pull the fascist and racist card especially with the anti fascist behave more like fascists then the people they are mad at.

 

[boji]

"Simple solution, stop destroying their countries. The last place they'll want to come is this fascist, racist  hellscape."

Wait, did you just admit that socialist and communist type regimes are powerless to shield themselves from the destructive force of capitalism? =D

 

[tands]

"Simple solution, stop destroying their countries. The last place they'll want to come is this fascist, racist  hellscape."

Wait, did you just admit that socialist and communist type regimes are powerless to shield themselves from the destructive force of capitalism? =D

Lmao, this is hilarious, you really believe you are involved in some kind of great battle. Call me Megatron from now on ok?

Fuckin' a.

 

[pucho812]

Speaking of propaganda

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2018/06/18/setting-record-straight-can-believe-families-separated-border