Republican Propaganda

[DaveP]

After watching the news for the last 50 years, I can see that most of the world's problems are caused by over population, yet no-one seems to be addressing the issue, something I find incomprehensible.

Migrants go to the US because they come from countries where there are more people than jobs to support their numbers.

The Catholic church must take a great deal of the blame for this in the central Americas.  The Bible said to "go forth and fill the world", but maybe not like sardines in a can right?

Are the people of these countries entirely innocent victims?  Are they brainwashed to marry and pro-create, even though they do not have the means to support their offspring?

You would all be better off debating fundamental causes, rather than arguing endless  "who said what issues " which lead to dead ends, I see this happen all the time on the Brewery.

If the children are not separated then they end up in prison with their parents which would cause an even greater outcry.

If the illegals are simply returned without penalty they will just come back again, this happens in Europe.

The reality is that there are very many people who want open borders in many countries, but they want others to pay for the consequences.  The rise of right wing parties around the world is an indication of the frustration of the"others" at the liberal governments failure to act on these difficult issues.

There needs to be a concerted effort to advertise to poor countries that the streets of the US and EU are not paved with gold, they are in fact heading for cold damp tents or in the EU case, a watery grave.

Humanity is fast over filling a finite world,  The consequences are much greater than separated children, they are depleted and plastic polluted oceans, logging of rain forests for cattle farming and palm oil production, global warming from more and more CO2 production as developing countries still use 19th century technology, loss of bio diversity and endangered species.

Trump is the only politician I can remember who is actually enacting his campaign promises, no surprise then, that the half of the country who did not vote for him, hate his guts.  He may get the Nobel peace prize for ending the Korean war, whereas Obama got one just for being elected, its a funny old world, you couldn't make it up ???

@Andratte you have my admiration.

DaveP

 

[tands]

It's more like 75% of the country didn't vote for him, as only about half voted. A common mistake.

The reality is that there are very many people who want open borders in many countries, but they want others to pay for the consequences.  The rise of right wing parties around the world is an indication of the frustration of the"others" at the liberal governments failure to act on these difficult issues.

The USG is subverting democracy around the planet and installing them also, dave. Nobody wants right wing governments but fascists and racists, so they have to be installed by/for corruption and oppression. Don't you find that to be true?

 

[tands]

I am a #Syrian citizen.

I have not authorized you or your colonial regimes to speak for me. #Assad is our democratically elected president. We the #Syrians love him & support him. He is not killing his people. He is saving his people from you & your terrorists.

#FromSyria

https://twitter.com/ahmadalissa/status/1008598095775531008

 

[JohnRoberts]

coincidentally almost immediately after I compliment this forum on civility, a new pile of poop is deposited on the stoop (mostly from the regular suspects).

I have tried to inform the group about best practices with troll like behavior. Ignoring inflammatory posts will deprive it of oxygen, responding and arguing against silly positions just gives energy to the bad behavior, whose goal is get any response. So keep in mind, our responses perpetuate this pattern. 

Despite moderation complaints I haven't found clear rule breaking, as the rules are currently written.

Enjoy.

JR

[edit- I just read in today's newspaper that they are still seeing russian trolls on twitter posting divisive political tweets in the run up to 2018 vote. I wonder how many of these get pasted here?  [/edit]

 

[dmp]

After watching the news for the last 50 years, I can see that most of the world's problems are caused by over population, yet no-one seems to be addressing the issue, something I find incomprehensible.

Yes, agreed - and overpopulation occurs in the poorest regions of the world. As groups become more educated and wealthy, the population growth tapers off. There are vary limited options - other than education I'm not sure what is possible.

That is why the opposition to family planning through education AND availability of abortion in the third world by conservative politicians is dumbfounding.  Especially when conservatives can be so callus about poor children, like Corey Lewandowski replying "woop woop" about a child being separated from her family. Unbelievable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/business/media/corey-lewandowski-womp-womp-down-syndrome.html?module=WatchingPortal&region=c-column-middle-span-region&pgType=Homepage&action=click&mediaId=thumb_square&state=standard&contentPlacement=2&version=internal&contentCollection=www.nytimes.com&contentId=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2018%2F06%2F20%2Fbusiness%2Fmedia%2Fcorey-lewandowski-womp-womp-down-syndrome.html&eventName=Watching-article-click

 

[L´Andratté]

Disagree.
The overpopulation is a problem because there´s only a fixed amount of resources, that has to be distributed among the sum of people.
So the problem can be approached from two sides.
Looking for the error starting with oneself, I´d say:
Overpopulation happens in the wealthiest countries, that´s were a total inappropriatly massive part of the resources of the earth are used up "per head" for not much more than convenience and because we´re simply used to it.

In truth both sides of the problem have to be addressed, I know that, but
telling other people to change their lifestyle, because we sure don´t want to change ours, well...  ???

 

[dmp]

Disagree.
The overpopulation is a problem because there´s only a fixed amount of resources, that has to be distributed among the sum of people.
So the problem can be approached from two sides.
Looking for the error starting with oneself, I´d say:
Overpopulation happens in the wealthiest countries, that´s were a total inappropriatly massive part of the resources of the earth are used up "per head" for not much more than convenience and because we´re simply used to it.

In truth both sides of the problem have to be addressed, I know that, but
telling other people to change their lifestyle, because we sure don´t want to change ours, well...  ???

I don't disagree with you (and I think you misunderstand what I was trying to say).
Populations grow as resources allow ( from a biological standpoint), not the other way around. The great increase in population of the last century was enabled by cheap energy and technology development, which INCREASED the resources available. 
I was saying education, which provides opportunity, is the only hope - NOT "telling other people to change their lifestyle". 
Additionally, increases in technology could reduce the "inappropriately massive" use of resources by the wealthiest countries.
What I think needs to be avoided, however, is continued increases in population as technology increases resources.

 

[DaveP]

Disagree.
The overpopulation is a problem because there´s only a fixed amount of resources, that has to be distributed among the sum of people.
So the problem can be approached from two sides.
Looking for the error starting with oneself, I´d say:
Overpopulation happens in the wealthiest countries, that´s were a total inappropriatly massive part of the resources of the earth are used up "per head" for not much more than convenience and because we´re simply used to it.

In truth both sides of the problem have to be addressed, I know that, but
telling other people to change their lifestyle, because we sure don´t want to change ours, well...  ???

You are of course entitled your view of the situation, but it is not our fault that the west industrialised first, invented modern medicine, sanitation and pioneered birth control.  What made this possible was large scale education and the realisation that we had to curb population growth to take into account that we have made it possible for people to live longer.

I worked in the Congo for an aid agency in the 70's and saw first hand what exposure to western magazines and colour supplements did to the opinions of young men.  They thought that in Puto (Europe) we were all so rich that we dressed in the latest fashions, drove fancy cars and wore Rolex, they had absolutely no idea of the lifestyle of average european, or how tough it actually was in terms of mortgages, stress and commuting just to live a very basic life.

What we are guilty of in the west, is that we have unbalanced the lives of third world countries.  We have dug wells for new water supplies so that more children survive and have children themselves, then they run out of water again and have no work so can't support their children.  The same thing happens with medical services. There are no agencies going into countries and setting up social security systems and income tax to pay for them.  Well meaning charities and agencies have caused the population boom in Africa and the consequent migration crisis and the crime epidemic in southern Africa.

Africa had a stable happy population for millennia before we went there and screwed it up.  I built a toilet block and sewage system for a jungle hospital and a house for a doctor, so I have done my bit to add to the population problem too.

DaveP

 

[Matador]

In fact the democrats ignored fixing immigration when they held a "super majority" during president Obamas first two years. The republicans do not have a super majority now, but could if the public gets tired of the democratic obstructionism.

Really John, this is starting to sound like another instance of much-decried 'political screed', which I'm almost positive has been denounced multiple times on these forums.  Maybe I should find some quotes?

Do you not remember it taking 7 months to swear in Al Franken?  Or Ted Kennedy's illness (remember the Senate doesn't allow voting by proxy - if you are in a coma your vote is lost)?  The total time of a super majority was about 59 working days between 2008 and 2010. 

Should I post a link to the number of times the filibuster was invoked to prevent cloture between 2008 and 2016?  Or perhaps the 9+ months that Merrick Garland sat waiting for a confirmation hearing?  I would be super interested to hear what constitutes 'obstructionism' versus 'a principled stance on the issues'.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Really John, this is starting to sound like another instance of much-decried 'political screed', which I'm almost positive has been denounced multiple times on these forums.  Maybe I should find some quotes?

a statement of fact... President Obama had a super majority, President Trump does not (yet).

Do you not remember it taking 7 months to swear in Al Franken?  Or Ted Kennedy's illness (remember the Senate doesn't allow voting by proxy - if you are in a coma your vote is lost)?  The total time of a super majority was about 59 working days between 2008 and 2010. 

they let dead people vote, why not vote in a coma...?

The democrat for life "Kennedy" senate seat went republican due to the backlash against ACA... of course MA couldn't stay republican very long and Elizabeth Warren brought it back into the democratic fold. 

Should I post a link to the number of times the filibuster was invoked to prevent cloture between 2008 and 2016?  Or perhaps the 9+ months that Merrick Garland sat waiting for a confirmation hearing?  I would be super interested to hear what constitutes 'obstructionism' versus 'a principled stance on the issues'.

Team politics... as usual.

The public count of obstruction is the one that counts. I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine (sorry).

Right now the question is wether focus will stay on immigration or the economy for nov midterm vote... I am not smart enough to predict, but i can see the man behind the curtain pulling vigorously on the levers.

JR

 

[Matador]

The public count of obstruction is the one that counts. I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine (sorry).

Change my mind about what?