Searching for a useful analogy

[JohnRoberts]

Often in nature we see relationships that translate across different mediums. One familiar one is the water flow analogy for electrical current.

Looking at how social media tends to amplify small differences of opinion into fighting words, taking opposite corners. Perhaps one analogy is an under-compensated high gain amplifier that becomes unstable after amplifying social media memes to hyperbolic levels.

If this analogy fits the question becomes how do we compensate the high gain amplification from social media. Stability compensation generally involves slowing down HF rate of change.

Something to think about instead of resolutions.

JR

 

[user 37518]

I actually think social media is like a high-gain open-loop amplifier, no matter how little you put in, the output goes into saturation. Before compensating, we should perhaps close the loop and tone down the extreme opinions.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

tone down the extreme opinions.

Who's to define "extreme opinions?"

Anonymity, or lack of face-to-face communication are big problems. There are no facial cues, body language, or tone of voice to "read" along with the text. Also there are fewer social consequences (a.k.a. a rap on the nose) for being a jerk. And now we have whole generations raised on SMS and social media who largely have little skill in normal interpersonal communication.

 

[JohnRoberts]

compensation caps don't make judgements, just slow things down.

JR

Who's to define "extreme opinions?"

Anonymity, or lack of face-to-face communication are big problems. There are no facial cues, body language, or tone of voice to "read" along with the text. Also there are fewer social consequences (a.k.a. a rap on the nose) for being a jerk. And now we have whole generations raised on SMS and social media who largely have little skill in normal interpersonal communication.

 

[user 37518]

Who's to define "extreme opinions?"

Anonymity, or lack of face-to-face communication are big problems. There are no facial cues, body language, or tone of voice to "read" along with the text. Also there are fewer social consequences (a.k.a. a rap on the nose) for being a jerk. And now we have whole generations raised on SMS and social media who largely have little skill in normal interpersonal communication.

I would say that if you say Merry Christmas and someone replies with "Its happy holidays, do not impose you Christian values on us" that qualifies as an extreme opinion, or better yet, an overreaction

 

[crazydoc]

Ground the input - but murder and genocide are not viable options.

Negative feedback - but apparently violates some folks sense of "free speech."

Ground the output - but hard to significantly change, limit access to, or destroy the internet.

Never fear, it looks like the amp is going to destroy itself and we won't have to worry about it (or anything).

 

[JohnRoberts]

Ground the input - but murder and genocide are not viable options.

never are

Negative feedback - but apparently violates some folks sense of "free speech."

negative feedback needs to be gentle... like how people stopped watching so much sports after they became annoyingly woke.

Ground the output - but hard to significantly change, limit access to, or destroy the internet.

it just needs to be slowed down (compensated) so bad ideas don't get amplified so high before sensible people realize and chime in with contrary thoughts to balance out extremes.

Never fear, it looks like the amp is going to destroy itself and we won't have to worry about it (or anything).

I remain ever optimistic but fixing it would not be trivial or simple which why I am looking for analogies from nature to maybe learn from.

[edit- the algorithms that promote trending topics are effectively positive feedback causing rising topics to rise even faster. Maybe instead of negative feedback, just a little less positive feedback. They are probably doing this to boost engagement for advertising metrics. /edit]

JR

 

[Recording Engineer]

Anonymity, or lack of face-to-face communication are big problems. There are no facial cues, body language, or tone of voice to "read" along with the text.

I agree!

Also there are fewer social consequences (a.k.a. a rap on the nose) for being a jerk. And now we have whole generations raised on SMS and social media who largely have little skill in normal interpersonal communication.

I’ll add that there are just as many “older generations” who feel they’ve lived a full life, so it gives them every right to be a jerk… I’m a jerk and I don’t care.

A quick example:
I’ve met my wife’s aunt’s new boyfriend a couple times now this past year; they’re in their 70s. Both times, he’s gone out of his way to let everyone at the dinner table (no one was talking politics) in the restaurant know that his daughter teaches at the most elite elementary school in Las Vegas area; I’m just going to guess it’s private or charter. It’s where his grand-daughter goes and it’s not a CRT school. I’ve yet to tell him over the entire table, that’s because CRT is just another theory taught in college and taken over for politics. That’s a jerk move on his part and shows some respect on my part. It wasn’t time for me to correct him and it wasn’t the time for him to be saying crap like that.

I’ve several elementary school teachers in my family, teaching all throughout the big bad liberal CA; including a brother, his wife, and my aunt. They’ve never taught anything like that!

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I agree!

I’ll add that there are just as many “older generations” who feel they’ve lived a full life, so it gives them every right to be a jerk… I’m a jerk and I don’t care.

Sounds like you're just imagining things to me. Older people usually have more life experiences (of all kinds). I'm not all that old, but I tire of hearing naive magic thinking from people who are old enough (40s+) to know better. I give people in their 20s and 30s more slack because they haven't had time to gain those experiences yet. I'm confident enough to not care what everyone else thinks of me. Maybe that's your definition of "jerk."

A quick example:
I’ve met my wife’s aunt’s new boyfriend a couple times now this past year; they’re in their 70s. Both times, he’s gone out of his way to let everyone at the dinner table (no one was talking politics) in the restaurant know that his daughter teaches at the most elite elementary school in Las Vegas area; I’m just going to guess it’s private or charter.

Just sounds like typical bragging to me. I tend to just ignore loud-mouthed braggarts of any age.

It’s where his grand-daughter goes and it’s not a CRT school.

And?

I’ve yet to tell him over the entire table, that’s because CRT is just another theory taught in college and taken over for politics.

My experience differs. It doesn't have to be on the official curriculum to be pushed in the classroom by teachers. Saw that in the CA school district we left in 2021. Also know one of my cousins (a woke teacher) pushes it in VA.

That’s a jerk move on his part and shows some respect on my part.

Bragging loudly is irritating most of the time. The rest is simply a difference of opinion. Sometimes being passive only encourages the behavior.

It wasn’t time for me to correct him and it wasn’t the time for him to be saying crap like that.

Hard to say. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of social media and the problems it causes in society.

I’ve several elementary school teachers in my family, teaching all throughout the big bad liberal CA; including a brother, his wife, and my aunt. They’ve never taught anything like that!

Yet the stuff is obviously spreading and it isn't parents teaching it. In-school videos prove otherwise.

 

[hodad]

John, I think you might be going overboard in blaming social media. Our problems today are no different than problems that have been faced throughout history. Whether it's Tulip Mania, or the Children's Crusades, or China's Cultural Revolution, or the Red Scare, these sorts of things have been going on for ages. Sure, social media may amplify, spread things more widely, and speed the process, but the core of this is human failing, not technology. Yes, social media may amplify, but the core of the issue is with the humans on either end of the device--the senders and receivers of the social media signal.

Certainly some sort of moderation of social media's amplification is key, but the people who filled that role at Twitter are currently being blasted here and elsewhere. I think you probably know all too well, John, how hard moderation choices can be. And sometimes the "right" choice has a less than satisfactory outcome, whereas the "wrong" choice may be effective in some cases but may also open the door to wrong wrong choices.

And of course, the moderators of social media are also human, just like the senders and receivers of the signal that social media amplifies, and the moderators are just as vulnerable to the human weaknesses and failings as anyone.

 

[crazydoc]

I think you might be going overboard in blaming social media.

I have to disagree. Though human failings (ignorance, stupidity, greed, bellicosity, et al) are the root of the problem, social media blows them out of control. As an example, look at "stop the steal" and 1/6/21.

 

[JohnRoberts]

John, I think you might be going overboard in blaming social media. Our problems today are no different than problems that have been faced throughout history. Whether it's Tulip Mania, or the Children's Crusades, or China's Cultural Revolution, or the Red Scare, these sorts of things have been going on for ages. Sure, social media may amplify, spread things more widely, and speed the process, but the core of this is human failing, not technology. Yes, social media may amplify, but the core of the issue is with the humans on either end of the device--the senders and receivers of the social media signal.

Certainly some sort of moderation of social media's amplification is key, but the people who filled that role at Twitter are currently being blasted here and elsewhere. I think you probably know all too well, John, how hard moderation choices can be. And sometimes the "right" choice has a less than satisfactory outcome, whereas the "wrong" choice may be effective in some cases but may also open the door to wrong wrong choices.

And of course, the moderators of social media are also human, just like the senders and receivers of the signal that social media amplifies, and the moderators are just as vulnerable to the human weaknesses and failings as anyone.

why must you call me out by name... That might be going overboard?

=====

Back on topic having only positive feedback leads to runaway instability. Worse than only positive feedback is selective negative feedback based on ideological filters. This tilts the public discussion in one direction.

I still don't see an easy way to fix this but the first step is to recognize that it is happening.

We need a bigger compensation cap.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I agree!

I’ll add that there are just as many “older generations” who feel they’ve lived a full life, so it gives them every right to be a jerk… I’m a jerk and I don’t care.

in some cultures old people are embraced and respected for their wisdom, gained from life experience (not here apparently). Sadly some older people are destined to die ignorant, many young people too.

I’ve several elementary school teachers in my family, teaching all throughout the big bad liberal CA; including a brother, his wife, and my aunt. They’ve never taught anything like that!

Good to hear... Many of my friends have used home schooling and yesterday I was talking to a long time (younger) friend with kids. He is sending them to a private christian school.

Critical theory has been kicking around for decades and discussed here before. Not really on topic for this thread.

JR

 

[hodad]

why must you call me out by name... That might be going overboard?

=====

We need a bigger compensation cap.

JR

Is it wrong to address the OP by name when he poses a question? Were the words and ideas I responded to not yours? My mistake, I suppose.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Is it wrong to address the OP by name when he poses a question? Were the words and ideas I responded to not yours? My mistake, I suppose.

It is too "familiar"

1. Often encountered or seen: synonym: common.
2. Having fair knowledge; acquainted.
3. Of established friendship; intimate.

I have told you that I don't care for it... I ignore all that you write after that. If you are OK with that, so am I.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

John, I think you might be going overboard in blaming social media. Our problems today are no different than problems that have been faced throughout history. Whether it's Tulip Mania, or the Children's Crusades, or China's Cultural Revolution, or the Red Scare, these sorts of things have been going on for ages. Sure, social media may amplify, spread things more widely, and speed the process, but the core of this is human failing, not technology.

Amplification is still a big problem, no?

Yes, social media may amplify, but the core of the issue is with the humans on either end of the device--the senders and receivers of the social media signal.

And the secret censors/"visibility manipulators" in the middle.

Certainly some sort of moderation of social media's amplification is key, but the people who filled that role at Twitter are currently being blasted here and elsewhere.

Except they absolutely did NOT moderate. They allowed their personal and collective biases to drive their actions. How else do you explain why actual despots have never been canceled from Twitter while Trump was?

I think you probably know all too well, John, how hard moderation choices can be. And sometimes the "right" choice has a less than satisfactory outcome, whereas the "wrong" choice may be effective in some cases but may also open the door to wrong wrong choices.

Yes. Almost there.

And of course, the moderators of social media are also human, just like the senders and receivers of the signal that social media amplifies, and the moderators are just as vulnerable to the human weaknesses and failings as anyone.

And there you are. You just stated the argument for free speech. Because there can be no neutral arbiters of "truth" or "accuracy" or "acceptable" communication. Congratulations!

 

[hodad]

I ignore all that you write after that.

How is that any different from what you always do, Frank?

 

[hodad]

They allowed their personal and collective biases to drive their actions.

As do we all. I think many of the Twitter folks were trying to do their job well. They did not decide the way you think they should have, because of your own biases.

It's odd that you're so worked up about Trump getting banned since he violated Twitter's terms of use literally on a daily basis. They gave him about a thousand chances more than he deserved due to his position. From my perspective he should have been booted years ago, but I also think that the decision to let him stay on so long in spite of persistent bad behavior was not made without serious deliberation.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Sounds like you're just imagining things to me. Older people usually have more life experiences (of all kinds). I'm not all that old, but I tire of hearing naive magic thinking from people who are old enough (40s+) to know better. I give people in their 20s and 30s more slack because they haven't had time to gain those experiences yet. I'm confident enough to not care what everyone else thinks of me. Maybe that's your definition of "jerk."


Just sounds like typical bragging to me. I tend to just ignore loud-mouthed braggarts of any age.


And?


My experience differs. It doesn't have to be on the official curriculum to be pushed in the classroom by teachers. Saw that in the CA school district we left in 2021. Also know one of my cousins (a woke teacher) pushes it in VA.


Bragging loudly is irritating most of the time. The rest is simply a difference of opinion. Sometimes being passive only encourages the behavior.


Hard to say. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the topic of social media and the problems it causes in society.



Yet the stuff is obviously spreading and it isn't parents teaching it. In-school videos prove otherwise.

Bragging was part of it, but bringing CRT out of no where, saying exactly the same thing, on two separate occasions, under the same, out of nowhere scenario, is simply being a jerk with an agenda to me.

I’m simply saying, being a young, naive, social media jerk is most certainly not the only or majority of cases. In fact, that’s the tie-in with social media.

To me, what’s happening on social media is a reflection of what’s happening off social media. There was, is, and always will be real-life jerks of all-ages in our every day lives; purposely or just plain weird. We all know the crazy uncle. We all know the QAnon person. We all know the extreme-woke person who always takes it way too far and is trying way too hard. We all know the judgy religious extremist who lost or missed the whole point. We all know the extreme anti-vax person. We all know the person who answers Big Pharma to absolutely everything. The list goes on and on.

What I believe social media (and 24-hour “news”) has done is amplify the natural healthy doubt we have in the back of our mind, about religion, politics, government, healthcare, or anything regarding absolutely anything and everything, and it has now become the absolute truth in the forefront; so much so that it has taken over our lives. That small handful of obsessive weirdos you personally know now have found a worldwide community. They’re fully-justified because hundreds of thousands or millions believe the same crazy thing. I will tell you, there’s also just as many making millions and billions off their crazy.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Critical theory has been kicking around for decades and discussed here before. Not really on topic for this thread.

Right. Wasn’t trying to either. It was just part of my example of my point. I’ve expanded on my point now.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

As do we all. I think many of the Twitter folks were trying to do their job well. They did not decide the way you think they should have, because of your own biases.

Read the rest of my reply.

It's odd that you're so worked up about Trump getting banned since he violated Twitter's terms of use literally on a daily basis. They gave him about a thousand chances more than he deserved due to his position. From my perspective he should have been booted years ago, but I also think that the decision to let him stay on so long in spite of persistent bad behavior was not made without serious deliberation.

I'm not "worked up" about the Trump ban so much as the obvious double standard being applied. It isn't about my biases at all. Why is Iran's religious leader allowed to spew actual incitement to violence and real racist ideology on the platform if they really enforce their "terms of service?"