So yeah, the PC people have won once again..

[ComodoComplex]

No but I would argue that Turkey even if its a non fundamental muslim country, its far from being tolerant or anything like the west, because after all it is still a muslim country.

There are folks *who are muslim* fighting for LGBT rights and all of that in Turkey. Don't pretend like the west is such a bastion of tolerance as you simultaneously deny that white supremacy is codified in western government and justice systems. It's still 100% incorrect to correlate Turkey being a muslim country with it having run of the mill social issues.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I love how you fail to address the point about muslim countries too  ;D

Islam is not "stuck in the 7th Century". How do you explain Turkey, a majority muslim country which is also extremely secular?

Yes Turkey was secular but has shifted back more conservative religious over the last decade.

It no longer makes a useful whaddabout example (IMO).

JR   

 

[ComodoComplex]

Yes Turkey was secular but has shifted back more conservative religious over the last decade.

It no longer makes a useful whaddabout example (IMO).

JR 

Yep the conservatives have a way of clawing back against progress don't they?

Regardless, the point is that there are muslim activists fighting for the same things activists had to fight for in the US. It's not the fact of them being muslim that has anything to do with their country's social issues.

 

[user 37518]

There are folks *who are muslim* fighting for LGBT rights and all of that in Turkey. Don't pretend like the west is such a bastion of tolerance as you simultaneously deny that white supremacy is codified in western government and justice systems. It's still 100% incorrect to correlate Turkey being a muslim country with it having run of the mill social issues.

Last couple of questions, before I go watch TV, and please do not take this as an offense, are you white? are you religious? I'ts just that over the internet its hard to see who you are discussing with. You already know I am white (and have already figured out I am religious), I know nothing about you.

 

[ComodoComplex]

Last couple of questions, before I go watch TV, and please do not take this as an offense, are you white? are you religious? I'ts just that over the internet its hard to see who you are discussing with.

Sure. I'm white and I'm not religious. Of mixed Jewish Eastern European heritage, and in the US of A that's Wonderbread!

 

[user 37518]

Sure. I'm white and I'm not religious. Of mixed Jewish Eastern European heritage, and in the US of A that's Wonderbread!

Right, in my experience, those who get offended on other people's behalf, who call other people racist, white supremacists, defend muslims, BLM, LGBTQ, and all that, are usually white atheists. "White shame" perhaps? BTW i lived for a while in the US during my masters, so I have some how formed an opinion of how things are there right now regarding freedom of speech, etc...

 

[ComodoComplex]

Right, in my experience, those who get offended on other people's behalf, who call other people racist, white supremacists, defend muslims, and all that, are usually white atheists. "White shame" perhaps?

Maybe you just only interact in spaces with white athiests?

 

[user 37518]

Maybe you just only interact in spaces with white athiests?

If that is what you call a US university, then maybe, yes... Well actually what surprised me about the university I was in is that most researchers were foreigners, and a lot of foreign students, yet all of the rallies and Woke movement were white atheist. I was in an EE building, all of my colleagues were Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean and Mexican, the researcher I was under his supervision was French. None, were involved in the entire Woke thing.

 

[ComodoComplex]

If that is what you call a US university, then maybe, yes...

Yeah that might skew your impressions don't you think? Also, I would feel bad for any person of color or LGBT folk who had to convince you that their concerns are valid. Maybe they just don't have the energy to deal with this? There are lots of ways your perception and availability to make a judgement could be biased and I invite you to consider them

 

[user 37518]

Yeah that might skew your impressions don't you think? Also, I would feel bad for any person of color or LGBT folk who had to convince you that their concerns are valid. Maybe they just don't have the energy to deal with this? There are lots of ways your perception and availability to make a judgement could be biased and I invite you to consider them

I traveled the US thou, I wasn't just there FYI, My room mate was brown Mexican, we used to travel a lot, we never experienced the racism you mention, I used to frequent a Mexican bar, full of mexican workers, and full of white customers, I never experience a single hint of racism or something similar, and well there is YouTube, which might be biased, but biased towards both sides... Ok, see you tomorrow.

 

[ComodoComplex]

I traveled the US thou, I wasn't just there FYI, and well there is YouTube, which might be biased, but biased towards both sides... Ok, see you tomorrow.

Lol sorry bud I gotta work tomorrow sadly. I’ll check back eventually but muting for now.

 

[JohnRoberts]

"Judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character"

Great words from a great man...

JR

 

[ComodoComplex]

Great words from a great man...

JR

Careful quoting MLK if you don’t know he was a socialist in favor of affirmative action!

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

-MLK Jr

 

[ComodoComplex]

Great words from a great man...

JR

Another good one specifically in regards to affirmative action:

“A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro.”

 

[JohnRoberts]

Careful quoting MLK if you don’t know he was a socialist in favor of affirmative action!

Funny I thought he was a Baptist minister and activist who was a high profile civil rights spokesman and leader in the civil rights movement up until his assassination death in 1968. 

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

-MLK Jr

I don't understand why everything has to be white vs. black (actually I do understand its a political strategy to divide us).

King advanced civil rights through nonviolence and civil disobedience, inspired by his Christian beliefs and the nonviolent activism of Mahatma Gandhi. His father MLK Sr. was a civil rights activist.

I stand by my post, great words from a great man.

JR

 

[ComodoComplex]

I don't understand why everything has to be white vs. black (actually I do understand its a political strategy to divide us).

You think MLK was trying to divide people when he criticized the white moderate? It's gaslighting to tell someone who is trying to inform you of injustice toward their racial group that their pleas for your attention and care is an attempt to divide your country

 

[user 37518]

You think MLK was trying to divide people when he criticized the white moderate? It's gaslighting to tell someone who is trying to inform you of injustice toward their racial group that their pleas for your attention and care is an attempt to divide your country

MLK was a great man! his entire speech was for unification,  his movement was much different than today's BLM which is extremely aggresive IMHO, and they seek to segregate, for example, now in universities they have a separate graduation day for black people than the rest, they have separate dorm rooms for the black and white people, so now segregation is slowly starting to become a thing again, but this time is not imposed by the state but by society itself, which is exactly what MLK was trying to erradicate, I seriously do not think this was his dream when he said "I have a dream...."

 

[Delta Sigma]

This is a tough thread to read. I only made it through the first few pages so sorry for jumping in out of context at the end.

Using "woke", "PC", "Cancel culture" as expletives does not highlight anyone's points, it just makes you sound like you've bought into a political culture and won't take in any new opinions or information. It sets up an argument, not a discussion.

Cancel culture, has swept into our lives quickly because of social media. It's leaving behind victims that may or may not deserve a second chance. Many, even the American political left, have warned that cancel culture will overreach, and it has happened. Does that mean that every person that has been "cancelled" has been unfairly cancelled? Definitely not. Deciding to hate cancel culture and everything about it seems as naive as those who buy in 100% and want every person who's said something offensive to be cancelled.

The biggest problem with hating on PC, wokeness, etc is that you can lose your ability to see reason when someone challenges social convention. Many normalized behaviours in our cultures will offend someone in way that only they can understand. Looking at what we do that offends someone should be okay to discuss, review and change if necessary. It's okay to be open to change.

The example of offensive jokes said in public, or comedians pushing boundaries, cannot be equated to a person facing prejudice in their everyday life for the colour of their skin, sexual orientation, gender, etc. As a straight white cis male I will never understand what it's like go through life where you can't even go to a store without being treated differently. What I can relate to, with a father that is less than 5' tall, is that your short jokes were not brushed off.

Now a company deciding to change its name (or Netflix dropping movies from a "cancelled" actor), why can't they? Let's say the "slutz" part of Gearslutz offends 3% of the population, why should anyone demand that that they limit their business to 97% of possible patrons? Or if Netflix spends big money on the rights to a show or film, the lead actor gets "cancelled", they realize they won't get enough viewers to cover their investment, why not drop the show?

I really don't understand why a lot of people seem to get offended at what I consider trivial things. But I'm an electronics nerd who is terrible with words. I really don't understand cancel culture, PC, wokeness. But my wife tells me "words matter". She's a high school vice-principal. She sees what words do. I'm a Telecom tech, I turn things off and turn them back on again.

Bottom line, it's okay for me to not understand why we have to consider our words. There are people that study psychology, social norms, gender issues, races issues, etc and it's okay for them to be smarter than me when it comes to their area of expertise. There are way too many people out there (not referring to anyone here) that will read some half baked article on an alt-right website and proclaim themselves experts and dismiss the opinions of those with PHDs because they're the "elite" or something like that.

If Gearslutz changes it's name, none of your freedoms will be hurt. You will be okay.

 

[user 37518]

The example of offensive jokes said in public, or comedians pushing boundaries, cannot be equated to a person facing prejudice in their everyday life for the colour of their skin, sexual orientation, gender, etc. As a straight white cis male I will never understand what it's like go through life where you can't even go to a store without being treated differently. What I can relate to, with a father that is less than 5' tall, is that your short jokes were not brushed off.

The whole purpose of comedians is to be able to be offensive, comedy is exactly that, take serious issues and make it satirical, comedians are not there just to make you laugh, but to make you think about the irony of something in a funny way, sometimes very serious topics, IMHO comedians can be like philosophers. Look at Ricky Gervais at the 2020 Golden Globes, he was full on bashing everyone there, and many got offended, that was the whole point.

Now a company deciding to change its name (or Netflix dropping movies from a "cancelled" actor), why can't they? Let's say the "slutz" part of Gearslutz offends 3% of the population, why should anyone demand that that they limit their business to 97% of possible patrons? Or if Netflix spends big money on the rights to a show or film, the lead actor gets "cancelled", they realize they won't get enough viewers to cover their investment, why not drop the show?

The problem is that they are canceling without any objective proof, take for instance what happened to Johnny Depp, his then girlfriend said some allegations about him and all his movies were instantly removed from Netflix, no questions asked, then it turned out that she was the guilty one. That is the problem, we now have social judgment, all it takes is for someone to speak out and you are guilty until proven otherwise. Netflix droped Johnny Depp's movies just because Netflix is so afraid of what society will say, so to avoid the Twitter and Facebook massive attacks, they just act from impulse, from fear.

I really don't understand why a lot of people seem to get offended at what I consider trivial things. But I'm an electronics nerd who is terrible with words. I really don't understand cancel culture, PC, wokeness. But my wife tells me "words matter". She's a high school vice-principal. She sees what words do. I'm a Telecom tech, I turn things off and turn them back on again.

Bottom line, it's okay for me to not understand why we have to consider our words. There are people that study psychology, social norms, gender issues, races issues, etc and it's okay for them to be smarter than me when it comes to their area of expertise. There are way too many people out there (not referring to anyone here) that will read some half baked article on an alt-right website and proclaim themselves experts and dismiss the opinions of those with PHDs because they're the "elite" or something like that.

If Gearslutz changes it's name, none of your freedoms will be hurt. You will be okay.

The problem is that in order to be able to think you have to risk being offensive. Like Jordan Peterson says, if you are talking to 1 person, you might get away and try not to offend him/her, but what about if you are talking to 1000 people? at least 1 will be offended by the mere fact that you exist, so what? we shouldn't say anything because maybe 1 person will be offended?

I mentioned earlier, the next step will probably be a petition to ban Gearslutz because they are discriminating or being offensive towards people who can't afford gear. Or maybe close the Hi-End subforum for being elitist, that is cancel culture.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You think MLK was trying to divide people when he criticized the white moderate? It's gaslighting to tell someone who is trying to inform you of injustice toward their racial group that their pleas for your attention and care is an attempt to divide your country

I refuse to argue with people on the WWW about what I think... I consider myself the expert on what I think.

I spoke as plainly as I could... Perhaps not plain enough.

JR