Soliloqueen's k87(k67) and k47 capsules

[Murdock]

There are two papers discussing the M50 capsule.
https://manualzz.com/doc/3341055/neumann.berlin-pressure-microphone-with-sperical-acoustichttp://recordinghacks.com/pdf/neumann/omni_sphere_aes_schneider.pdf
I would like to know where that myth about the 0.8 Micron comes from... I've read it a few times over at Klaus Heynes Forum. There some also mention a Nickel M50 capsule.
There is no mention in any "official" documents that states that the M50 was ever made with a Nickel diaphragm... It's only PVC, ALU and PET Gold. So the mentioned "metal diaphragm" in the Neumann paper has to be the Alu one.
I don't even know, if it is possible to tension a 0.8 Micron Alu foil to that extend...

As I experimented on a tunable omni capsule with different thicknes of membranes I'm lead to believe that the actual thickness is not a deal breaker. I would say it's one of the least "problems" to worry about if you stay inside a certain area (2-12 micron).
I don't say the thickness doesn't effect anything but the effect is rather small compared to alot of other things that make a capsule a great capsule.

EDIT: just read that the K33 of the TLM50 was made of Nickel. But as the other paper states they used a 2.25 Micron diaphragm in the TLM50.

 

[kingkorg]

Guys, are you talking about aluminum sputtered mylar or pure aluminum foil? Big difference.

 

[soliloqueen]

Guys, are you talking about aluminum sputtered mylar or pure aluminum foil? Big difference.

It's pure. They plated it on copper and then dissolved the copper out from underneath it to get a layer as thin as they need it

 

[bremusound]

The K53 membrane was made not from pure aluminium but from Duraluminium! That‘s why it could be tensioned that much.

 

[kingkorg]

It's pure. They plated it on copper and then dissolved the copper out from underneath it to get a layer as thin as they need it

Cool, because i'm pretty sure the mentioned ISK capsules are aluminum sputtered mylar.

 

[Recording Engineer]

The K53 membrane was made not from pure aluminium but from Duraluminium! That‘s why it could be tensioned that much.

I pretty-well figured that must be the case.

Cool, because i'm pretty sure the mentioned ISK capsules are aluminum sputtered mylar.

Yes, I’ve always wondered what the true case was there. Unlit someone says for sure otherwise, I’ve gone with what the manufacturer says. I’ve got a pair. One sounds really great, the other so-so. I’m willing to send to someone to sacrifice for science; if anyone’s interested. I could also ask Luke Audio if he knows the real deal; it’s what he uses as his LA-9.

 

[Murdock]

To get back to topic, I received my pair of soliloqueen's flat K47 yesterday. Today I had a little time to compare to the Maiku K47 in my M49 clones.
I thought the Maiku's sound great in these mics, but now... oh man. Compared to the flat K47 they sound like they have a telephone effect on them. Pronounced mids and cut off highs and lows.
At first I was fooled by the presence boost of the Maiku. I can see, that it can be quite flattering one some sources. But this feature can be a blessing and a curse.
And now comparing the two it seems more often a curse.
The flat K47 seems to never dissapoint. And that is more in the vein the classic M49 is often described. As an allround mic.
The difference with different polar patterns is even bigger. Figure 8 is really weird on the Maiku compared to the flat K47. Harsh and undefined while the flat K47 is just smoooooth. Proximity effect is more pronounced on the flat K47 but in a really nice way.
Don't get me wrong, the Maiku also sounds good. But the flat K47 is in another league.
I will compare it more in the next days and some other sources but for now I'm pretty happy.
Thanks Soliloqueen!

 

[soliloqueen]

I'm glad to hear your thoughts, @Murdock !

The flat k47 will be back in stock Tuesday (or so) next week. I'll make my WM thread then since the K87 is taking too long.

 

[Purplenoise]

I'm glad to hear your thoughts, @Murdock !

The flat k47 will be back in stock Tuesday (or so) next week. I'll make my WM thread then since the K87 is taking too long.

Niiiiice. So looking forward to receiving my new pair…2 mics already lined up to happily receive them.

 

[Recording Engineer]

There are two papers discussing the M50 capsule.
https://manualzz.com/doc/3341055/neumann.berlin-pressure-microphone-with-sperical-acoustichttp://recordinghacks.com/pdf/neumann/omni_sphere_aes_schneider.pdf
I would like to know where that myth about the 0.8 Micron comes from... I've read it a few times over at Klaus Heynes Forum. There some also mention a Nickel M50 capsule.
There is no mention in any "official" documents that states that the M50 was ever made with a Nickel diaphragm... It's only PVC, ALU and PET Gold. So the mentioned "metal diaphragm" in the Neumann paper has to be the Alu one.
I don't even know, if it is possible to tension a 0.8 Micron Alu foil to that extend...

As I experimented on a tunable omni capsule with different thicknes of membranes I'm lead to believe that the actual thickness is not a deal breaker. I would say it's one of the least "problems" to worry about if you stay inside a certain area (2-12 micron).
I don't say the thickness doesn't effect anything but the effect is rather small compared to alot of other things that make a capsule a great capsule.

EDIT: just read that the K33 of the TLM50 was made of Nickel. But as the other paper states they used a 2.25 Micron diaphragm in the TLM50.

I don’t see anything alluding to 8-micron on M50 aluminum diaphragms in either of those. Yes, it does seem 2.25-microns was the choice with the kk33 nickel and recording hacks says the kk33 TI is 5-microns.

I honestly can’t think of or find where I’ve seen that aluminum on the K53/M50 was 0.8-microns. Although, I certainly don’t ever remember seeing any known “elites” in all these forums over all these years that ever seemed to question it. This includes Martin Schneider in a series of posts where David Satz mentions it’s less than 1-micron. I have found those.

By the way, they went nickel with the kk33 because they couldn’t do aluminum anymore. SPA was the only place that could still do it then.They seemed to change to titanium very quickly for a very good reason. Stephen said, after his suggestion. I think they got reminded, from a few directions, the pitfalls of nickel. See what I did there?

 

[SparkleBear]

I too was able to install one of my flat k47 into a mic yesterday with beautiful ear to ear grinning results. I was working on my def-47 and it was already taken all the way apart... thought why not just toss one in there for fun. I dont think im going to put my neumann k47 back in there. I thought it was too bright before with the mating of the k47 and ef800... m7 wouldve been a better fit but didnt have one. This sounds just right!!! I will use the neumann k47 for my next m49 build


Just gorgeous!

 

[soliloqueen]

Hahaha! All the wires are the same color. That's an unfortunate coincidence

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

To get back to topic, I received my pair of soliloqueen's flat K47 yesterday. Today I had a little time to compare to the Maiku K47 in my M49 clones.
I thought the Maiku's sound great in these mics, but now... oh man. Compared to the flat K47 they sound like they have a telephone effect on them. Pronounced mids and cut off highs and lows.
At first I was fooled by the presence boost of the Maiku. I can see, that it can be quite flattering one some sources. But this feature can be a blessing and a curse.
And now comparing the two it seems more often a curse.
The flat K47 seems to never dissapoint. And that is more in the vein the classic M49 is often described. As an allround mic.
The difference with different polar patterns is even bigger. Figure 8 is really weird on the Maiku compared to the flat K47. Harsh and undefined while the flat K47 is just smoooooth. Proximity effect is more pronounced on the flat K47 but in a really nice way.
Don't get me wrong, the Maiku also sounds good. But the flat K47 is in another league.
I will compare it more in the next days and some other sources but for now I'm pretty happy.
Thanks Soliloqueen!

This is a very accurate description of these two capsules. A while ago I accepted to build an M49 clone to a friend. I used a Maiku K47 and my first impression was that the sound was very close to Neumann Berlin K47, although it was a bit less 3D and not as detailed in the bass and high end. The owner was very happy and sent me some demo recordings. The flaws were very evident and I was quite disapointed with my build. At that point I had received two K47 flat so I took the microphone back and installed one. It's now a much better and more allround microphone and I just finished building an identical for myself.

 

[SparkleBear]

Hahaha! All the wires are the same color. That's an unfortunate coincidence

You just gotta know whats going on to know whats going on...

@soliloqueen , Is there a potential for building some SDC in the future? On your radar at all?

 

[soliloqueen]

one more thing: i am also willing to offer backplate machining for people who make their own capsules. backplates will be delivered with the faces already flat. more details in the WM thread next week

 

[AusTex64]

It's pure. They plated it on copper and then dissolved the copper out from underneath it to get a layer as thin as they need it

I was told by Oliver Archut that Neumann used rolled nickel and Gefell used the galvanically grown copper method. Oliver claimed the rolled nickel was superior. Georg Neumann invented NiCad batteries with the thin aluminum. I haven’t heard a comparison between rolled nickel vs galvanically grown nickel. I have four Gefell M94‘s with tube buffers that sound great. I have also not heard the Gefell M294 with their modern version of M94. I need to get around to that.

 

[mhelin]

It's good that people start finally invent and use something which is not vintage correct but still sounds good, like that "flat K47". Wonder how it's different to vintage correct K47, anyway it must been kind of happy accident. Evolution of condenser capsules almost seems to be stopped. There are few companies making any new development, one such company is the Austrian Audio, they use textile materials in their capsules to implement the acoustic resistance instead of using the usual tiny hole patterns and chambers in the backplates (also ceramics in the backplate).

 

[Recording Engineer]

I completely agree… Honestly, I’ve always been tired of the whole: “It doesn’t sound like the original!” I don’t give a rats ***! Buy the f’n original then and move the f on!

While I still very much wish for my uptopia of a true original aluminum kk53 remake, in attempt, Ben at Beesneez did it has own way! I have a pair of those and I will die completely satisfied!

Mark at Samar Audio went completely innovative on a capsule! I have 3!

NIKFI went completely innovative on a capsule in their KMN 15 and 16. I had to pick one up!

 

[Recording Engineer]

Georg Neumann invented NiCad batteries with the thin aluminum.

That’s funny… I just tonight ran into a 2003 GearSlutz post by Stephen Paul mentioning that.

 

[Recording Engineer]

I wonder how thick Nordic Audio Labs’ NU-100K aluminum large diaphragm is or how thick any of the PML/Pearl/Milab diaphragms are. I remember Aseyer and ISK using 4-micron aluminum large diaphragms.

I must come back around and mention that I now realize Milab/Pearl is simply using aluminum on Mylar… I knew that! What was I thinking? Doh!

I also realize I already knew how thick the NU-100K aluminum is. Martin had already confirmed with me that it’s a 6-micron pure aluminum diaphragm in a 30mm capsule.

Anyhow, I truly would like to find out for sure how thick the aluminum on the kk53 was. I truly would love to be absolutely wrong!