team politics talking points.

[JohnRoberts]

Indeed. A fetus is not a person. The question should be at which point the fetus is significantly functioning on a neural level that government should be required to protect it.

Indeed, it is not a simple all or none binary question as most political discussions end up. That is why SCOTUS punted the decision back down to the states. Many liberal justices (including RBG) have been critical of Roe v. Wade. Now the states get to sort it out following the will of their own voters.

I try to defer to women about this. The fetus is clearly a living thing and the science surrounding this has progressed over the decades since Roe was first decided. I have not formed a strong personal opinion but I am not in favor of abortion all the way up to live birth. Perhaps the loudest whiners will calm down after they realize their states already allow abortions (NY,CA, etc).

But many people, judges of the highest court presumably included, imagine transfer of a "soul", an immaterial spirit, for which there is not only zero evidence but not the slightest necessity in terms of the functioning of objeective reality as it presents itself to us, into the organized cell material long before actual information processing at a relevant level occurs. Coincidentally, it is quite often the same people who imagine a corporation, an amalgamation of capital, to deserve rights of personhood.

That's how messed up right wing ideology is.

Straw man... Do you understand the SCOTUS ruling? ruling text I haven't read it.
===
Some European countries’ laws set the time limit for abortion on request or broad social grounds between 18-24 weeks of pregnancy, whereas others set the limit around the first trimester of pregnancy. This sounds reasonable.

I expect states to be all over the place, and we can freely move to a different state that is more consistent with our ideology. Coincidentally the case that triggered SCOTUS overturning ROE was a MS state law. I don't plan on moving out of MS because of this.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Did you REALLY just try to make terminating a zygote to the shootings on the 4th?! Says he who proudly professes to shoot squirrels that have lived and are living a full life. Those who kill things and eat meat really don't make the pro-life point very well. Muslims have every single Christian beat with at least being "halal". Yes, it is getting interesting as logic breaks down. Like I said before, there's some 10 year old rape victims that could use a hug as you support policies that force them to bring their daddy's baby to term. Maybe you should adopt developmentally challenged child due to incest to really bring your point home. I could find dozens more of these instances just 10-12 days after your party's "momentous" decision. Disgusting.

10-year-old rape victim in Ohio reportedly denied abortion, travels to Indiana for procedure

https://boingboing.net/2022/07/05/s...forced-to-give-birth-to-her-rapists-baby.html

you guys are exhausting....

According to Quran the fetus does not have a soul for the first trimester.

Like I said not a simple question.

JR

 

[living sounds]

Indeed, it is not a simple all or none binary question as most political discussions end up. That is why SCOTUS punted the decision back down to the states.

No, that was just the spin they put on it. We all know this is about religion, control, ideology.

Unfortuantely, these Republicans are never about finding solutions that reduce actual harm and make people's lives better. They wouldn't have tought "abstinence only" in the 00s if their goal had been to reduce the number of pregnancies that lead to abortions. They wanted to control people's sexual behaviour for religions and ideological reasons. You know this is true.

I have not formed a strong personal opinion but I am not in favor of abortion all the way up to live birth.

That would be the straw man. Very few people would be in favour of forcible stopping the heart of a fully formed, healthy, viable fetus right before natural birth.

BTW, mixed up the terms above, what I meant was "embryo".

 

[JohnRoberts]

No, that was just the spin they put on it. We all know this is about religion, control, ideology.

Unfortuantely, these Republicans are never about finding solutions that reduce actual harm and make people's lives better. They wouldn't have tought "abstinence only" in the 00s if their goal had been to reduce the number of pregnancies that lead to abortions. They wanted to control people's sexual behaviour for religions and ideological reasons. You know this is true.



That would be the straw man. Very few people would be in favour of forcible stopping the heart of a fully formed, healthy, viable fetus right before natural birth.

BTW, mixed up the terms above, what I meant was "embryo".

Your opinion about republicans is pretty ugly... I am a republican and don't agree with your subjective assessment about me/us.

JR

 

[living sounds]

Facts are not subjective.

 

[Heikki]

===
If you want to move to Finland maybe start a go fund me campaign, I hear they work.
===

I don’t think Finland is the right place for the ultra woke. We have lots of guns here. Traditionally 90% of gun deaths have been suicides but that is changing and banning legal guns won’t make it better. Abortion laws are pretty strict too (12 weeks). Highest petrol prices in Europe isn’t very appealing either or the impossibly high taxes which don’t get the things they promise. On the other hand Finland is a country which has only one allowed opinion on matters and that might be appealing to the woke.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Facts are not subjective.

Opinions from afar (or "on high") are not facts, either. You, sir, are not an expert on the subject of the US Constitution or related matters.

 

[iturnknobs]

*an analogy to

Did you REALLY just try to make terminating a zygote to the shootings on the 4th?! Says he who proudly professes to shoot squirrels that have lived and are living a full life. Those who kill things and eat meat really don't make the pro-life point very well. Muslims have every single Christian beat with at least being "halal". Yes, it is getting interesting as logic breaks down. Like I said before, there's some 10 year old rape victims that could use a hug as you support policies that force them to bring their daddy's baby to term. Maybe you should adopt developmentally challenged child due to incest to really bring your point home. I could find dozens more of these instances just 10-12 days after your party's "momentous" decision. Disgusting.

10-year-old rape victim in Ohio reportedly denied abortion, travels to Indiana for procedure

https://boingboing.net/2022/07/05/s...forced-to-give-birth-to-her-rapists-baby.html

 

[living sounds]

Opinions from afar (or "on high") are not facts, either. You, sir, are not an expert on the subject of the US Constitution or related matters.

The only tool in your toolbox appears to be the ad hominem, so I won't discuss with you any more.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

The only tool in your toolbox appears to be the ad hominem, so I won't discuss with you any more.

Says the guy spewing generalized ad hominem against people outside his own country based on perceptions apparently gleaned from biased media sources. Look in the mirror.

 

[Matador]

Some European countries’ laws set the time limit for abortion on request or broad social grounds between 18-24 weeks of pregnancy, whereas others set the limit around the first trimester of pregnancy. This sounds reasonable.

These were nearly the exact limits in place under Roe and Casey. As usual, originalism is an answer searching for a question.

Many liberal justices (including RBG) have been critical of Roe v. Wade.

RGB was critical that the decision was grounded in "a right to privacy", and felt it should have fallen under the equal protection clause: she had written extensively about this. The outcome would have been identical, but RGB was fearful that the privacy grounds would be used to strike it down: in other words, exactly what happened. RGB was staunchly pro-choice.

Perhaps the loudest whiners will calm down after they realize their states already allow abortions (NY,CA, etc).

Leading antiabortion groups and their allies in Congress have been meeting behind the scenes to plan a national strategy that would kick in if the Supreme Court rolls back abortion rights this summer, including a push for a strict nationwide ban on the procedure if Republicans retake power in Washington.

The effort, activists say, is designed to bring a fight that has been playing out largely in the courts and state legislatures to the national political stage — rallying conservatives around the issue in the midterms and pressuring potential 2024 GOP presidential candidates to take a stand.

 

[scott2000]

I could find dozens more of these instances just 10-12 days after your party's "momentous" decision. Disgusting

It is disgusting...
There are even theories out that the abortion Dr. in Indiana is some activist and the 10yo story is conveniently made up. I mean, even if she were, who cares if the story is made up and protected by Dr/patient confidentiality, albeit pretty disgusting in itself, at least it creates dialog.

 

[living sounds]

Says the guy spewing generalized ad hominem against people outside his own country based on perceptions apparently gleaned from biased media sources. Look in the mirror.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "ad hominem". And you did it again right there.

 

[living sounds]

Washington Post said:

Leading antiabortion groups and their allies in Congress have been meeting behind the scenes to plan a national strategy that would kick in if the Supreme Court rolls back abortion rights this summer, including a push for a strict nationwide ban on the procedure if Republicans retake power in Washington.

The effort, activists say, is designed to bring a fight that has been playing out largely in the courts and state legislatures to the national political stage — rallying conservatives around the issue in the midterms and pressuring potential 2024 GOP presidential candidates to take a stand.

I do hope they do that. Given the public opinion on the issue they will defeat themselves. All their dirty tricks won't be enough against the overwhelming opposition against their extremist views.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I don't think you understand the meaning of "ad hominem". And you did it again right the

I certainly do and nothing you quoted was an example. However your latest screed claiming "dirty tricks" and "extremist views" is perfectly acceptable, right? Feelings aren't thinking.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't think you understand the meaning of "ad hominem". And you did it again right there.

1. Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
2. Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.

JR

 

[living sounds]

Your ar

I certainly do and nothing you quoted was an example. However your latest screed claiming "dirty tricks" and "extremist views" is perfectly acceptable, right? Feelings aren't thinking.

Your argument boils down to "You are from Germany and can't possible understand the US constitution so shut up".

 

[JohnRoberts]

Don't hate me for killing squirrels, rodents with bushy tails (zero confirmed kills so far this season).

This morning I had to cut a bird out of the bird netting around my fig tree. Over the years I have found evidence of birds trashing my tomatoes and figs, this year they are also pecking holes in my apples still on the tree.

In general I don't kill birds, they eat insects that I dislike even more.

Today's bird refused to calm down and every time I cut him a little loose he got even more tangled up. I ended up hacking a section out of my bird netting. I couldn't get his legs completely free, but he managed to hobble away across the yard. I am surprised that none of my neighbor's too many stray cats took advantage of the easy target.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Your ar

Your argument boils down to "You are from Germany and can't possible understand the US constitution so shut up".

Perhaps his argument boils down to the words he wrote, not what you imagine he is thinking.

JR

 

[living sounds]

Perhaps his argument boils down to the words he wrote, not what you imagine he is thinking.

JR

It's a page or two above.