Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000

[ruffrecords]

I think we need brewery, but without politics. There are some themes which aren't strictly technical but should be discussed like this one:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=75621.0

LOL as soon as I posted I thought of a topic that should be in the brewery. Perhaps the brewery should be reserved for any topic directly related to audio electronics so that means no politics, religion, global warming, food, beer etc.

Cheers

Ian

 

[rob_gould]

I like the food / beer / non-audio chat.  I think every forum which has a healthy 'off topic' section is better off for it.

I am also 'anti' the idea of banning certain topics.  I'm not sure why it's so hard to not click on things that you suspect (or know) are going to annoy or upset you.

 

[Bo Deadly]

I'm not sure why it's so hard to not click on things that you suspect (or know) are going to annoy or upset you.

Exactly. That's really the problem isn't it? It's like click-bait. And even if it's not political, it get's highjacked (like the COVID-19 thread). Try as you might to avoid it, you just can't help but get sucked into it.

With the exception of solicitations and childish behavior, I don't like the idea of banning things. Stackexchange moderators are a bunch of autocratic imperial psychos. They expect every post to be crafted like an encyclopedia entry. There's no debating. Sometimes you need to get into a good argument to learn something new (even if you don't admit it initially and then claim you knew it all along a month later).

A good compromise might be to just move The Brewery into to "The Daily Grind" section. That way, when you click on "Unread Posts", all of The Brewery posts are not in your face like click-bait.

 

[fazer]

A good compromise might be to just move The Brewery into to "The Daily Grind" section. That way, when you click on "Unread Posts", all of The Brewery posts are not in your face like click-bait.

+1

thanks bluebird and scott2k .  I come here more than any other forum and have learned lessons in many subjects.  This online life is a blessing but also a curse when used the wrong way.  It’s an answer to problems with electronics And fabrication  from so many contributors.  Its also  a place to take personal responsibility for your actions with others.         

Free speech is what makes my  world go round but it’s also the thing that gets me in trouble when I haven’t edited my typing on a reply to a thread.  We have rules of conduct and people are allowed to criticize but in a proper way. Im Still learning what that is.

Things will not  go back to old way of the past even if  trump is gone in 2021,  It’s  a new era.  I can’t control someone else’s actions but I want to do a better job of controlling my own in the forum. 

Winston maybe it’s time to take a break from your computer.  I remember you stating you were inside your house and had only left the house 3 times in 3 months in a recent post.  It made me think about you and worried about you.  I’ve enjoyed you’re insight on preamps and stories of the recording business as well as performers you’ve know.  I’ve seen podcast that people have taken one month break from media and online activity.  It’s a detox.  God knows I need it .  I just need to do it.  All I know is you disappeared in the past and I was glad to see you make amends and come back. I would miss your thoughts and help on many topics.    Currently I’m avoiding some of those topics and doing better because of it. 

 

[madswitcher]

Having looked over the ‘mixer’ thread that Winston refers to and also being a minor contributor to that thread, I would like to add some observations:

On page 1 of the thread:  I get the impression that Winston made a reply back to Pucho that was quoted in part by both him and JR and yet Winston’s original contribution appears to have been deleted from the thread.  Not being able to see the whole context of this is unfair to the forum contributors. (the quotes are from “quote from Wintson O’ Boogie on June 24, 2020 10:07:24AM).  This one referred to Pucho “Maybe he already lost the will to pick up a soldering iron after reading that digital summing is the way to go.” to which Pucho took some offence to.

From what I can see, another post of Winston’s at June 24 2020, 07:45:30 also seems to have disappeared, yet there is at least one quote referring to this.

On page 2 of the thread, another contribution from Winston (June 25, 2020 02:11:26PM) is quoted by JR, but not visible.  This one explains that Winston’s “soldering iron” comment was not meant to be derogatory.

Another contribution from Winston is gone - June 25, 2020 05:36:29PM and two more at 09:54:19 AM and 10:54:24 AM.
At June 26, 2020 06:41:04 PM, I suggested that alternative guidance may come if Pucho can get hold a schematic to an EMI TG recording/mixing console as it could help.  This desk uses transistor-based current sources (not voltage sources using series resistors to turn voltages into currents) to drive a Virtual Earth summing amplifier and was developed in the mid 1960s.  It was a very effective and simple design and I was trying to draw attention to this.  The fact that a console using it was bought for its sound for just under 2 million USD says a lot. 

JR, Mike Batchelor of EMI was 20 years ahead of your idea of using current sources to drive a summing amp, but it was not (necessarily) public knowledge.  Winston, like myself, is somewhat careful of releasing any EMI-related schematics which I why I asked if anyone else had seen it on the Internet.

Overall, I think that Winston got a bit of a raw deal.

/rant off

Mike

 

[JohnRoberts]

Having looked over the ‘mixer’ thread that Winston refers to and also being a minor contributor to that thread, I would like to add some observations:

On page 1 of the thread:  I get the impression that Winston made a reply back to Pucho that was quoted in part by both him and JR and yet Winston’s original contribution appears to have been deleted from the thread.  Not being able to see the whole context of this is unfair to the forum contributors. (the quotes are from “quote from Wintson O’ Boogie on June 24, 2020 10:07:24AM).  This one referred to Pucho “Maybe he already lost the will to pick up a soldering iron after reading that digital summing is the way to go.” to which Pucho took some offence to.

From what I can see, another post of Winston’s at June 24 2020, 07:45:30 also seems to have disappeared, yet there is at least one quote referring to this.

On page 2 of the thread, another contribution from Winston (June 25, 2020 02:11:26PM) is quoted by JR, but not visible.  This one explains that Winston’s “soldering iron” comment was not meant to be derogatory.

Think about it...  why would I delete a post that I quoted... ? 

Another contribution from Winston is gone - June 25, 2020 05:36:29PM and two more at 09:54:19 AM and 10:54:24 AM.
At June 26, 2020 06:41:04 PM, I suggested that alternative guidance may come if Pucho can get hold a schematic to an EMI TG recording/mixing console as it could help.  This desk uses transistor-based current sources (not voltage sources using series resistors to turn voltages into currents) to drive a Virtual Earth summing amplifier and was developed in the mid 1960s.  It was a very effective and simple design and I was trying to draw attention to this.  The fact that a console using it was bought for its sound for just under 2 million USD says a lot. 

JR, Mike Batchelor of EMI was 20 years ahead of your idea of using current sources to drive a summing amp, but it was not (necessarily) public knowledge.  Winston, like myself, is somewhat careful of releasing any EMI-related schematics which I why I asked if anyone else had seen it on the Internet.

Overall, I think that Winston got a bit of a raw deal.

/rant off

Mike

For the record I did not remove or edit any of his posts. If I do edit or delete anything within someone else's post I say what I did in a comment right in that very same post (most often my edits involve deleting egregious or hurtful insults). I generally prefer to leave violations in place to embarrass the poster into behaving better and to serve notice to others about the rules.

Posters can delete their own posts and I suspect that is the more likely explanation for any missing posts from that thread. Like I said If I delete anything I say so.
===
Of course I have interest in prior art, if EMI schematics are top secret, perhaps there is a patent number with descriptions. I repeat at this late stage of the game analog summing is academic, but I would like to know. It wouldn't be the first time ancients stole one of my ideas.  I even found out after the fact that one of my several patents was not novel, but I learned this after I no longer worked at Peavey and they were assigned the rights (for $1).

In my patent searches back in the 70s and since then I found references to summing tube outputs (class A) but that did not deliver the noise gain benefit solid state bilateral current sources do.  The USPTO examiners could not understand the difference between summing "currents" and summing "current sources", and I did not have the resources to educate them at my lawyers hourly billing rate .

I unequivocally deny that I mistreated Winston or bear him any malice, but he sure thinks I do/did...

Of course if I broke any forum rule let me, and everybody know.  These are the forum rules that Ethan gave us. https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=6650.msg78051#msg78051

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Exactly. That's really the problem isn't it? It's like click-bait. And even if it's not political, it get's highjacked (like the COVID-19 thread). Try as you might to avoid it, you just can't help but get sucked into it.

With the exception of solicitations and childish behavior, I don't like the idea of banning things. Stackexchange moderators are a bunch of autocratic imperial psychos. They expect every post to be crafted like an encyclopedia entry. There's no debating. Sometimes you need to get into a good argument to learn something new (even if you don't admit it initially and then claim you knew it all along a month later).

A good compromise might be to just move The Brewery into to "The Daily Grind" section. That way, when you click on "Unread Posts", all of The Brewery posts are not in your face like click-bait.

The brewery is extremely popular for something so many disdain.

Back in 2018 I made a suggestion to Ethan to consider a Blog/chat like sub forum where comments would disappear after some finite time. I don't know if this would cool down or inflame interpersonal exchanges. Doesn't matter because this was rejected by Ethan.

He shared that he evaluated a forum software feature that erases threads after x weeks with no new comments. This is clearly unacceptable for technical forums that have archival value, but perhaps letting the brewery post disappear after some interval might work.

Two years ago the forum climate was already heating up and has only gotten worse since then. My suggestion for the chat /blog is that I see many posts in the brewery that have nothing to do with the thread topic, just forum members venting anger anywhere they can...

Hopefully this venting is a healthy release. Nobody is changing anybody's minds here. 

JR

 

[madswitcher]

Think about it...  why would I delete a post that I quoted... ?  For the record I did not remove or edit any of his posts. If I do edit or delete anything within someone else's post I say what I did in a comment right in that very same post (most often my edits involve deleting egregious or hurtful insults). I generally prefer to leave violations in place to embarrass the poster into behaving better and to serve notice to others about the rules.

I did think about it, which is why I asked why was it deleted (by whoever) and yet still allowed to be quoted.  There is some referential integrity missing here as it did not show Winston's side of the discussion.

Of course I have interest in prior art, if EMI schematics are top secret, perhaps there is a patent number with descriptions.

I don't think they are Top Secret but probably Commercial In Confidence.  However, my attention has been drawn to this site:

http://www.phaedrus-audio.com/TG12345.htm    Which gives a simplified explanation.

Mike

 

[Winston OBoogie]

JR, Mike Batchelor of EMI was 20 years ahead of your idea of using current sources to drive a summing amp, but it was not (necessarily) public knowledge.  Winston, like myself, is somewhat careful of releasing any EMI-related schematics which I why I asked if anyone else had seen it on the Internet.

Overall, I think that Winston got a bit of a raw deal.

Thank's  Mike.  Got your P.M. too and thanks for that also  
I have to  say that it was me who erased my own posts in that thread and I indicated later on in the thread that I'd done so.   
I did it because I felt I was being bulldozed by J.R. every single time I posted something.   

My replies there were directly in response to the question posed by the O.P.  and I thought it was information worth sharing.  I backed up my posts with figures, tables, and science so they weren't just wild opinions.    I wasn't  in any way saying that this would be the cure all of all mixer evils, I was just simply trying to help answer the question that was initially posed. 
However  J.R. seemed insistent on pushing his 1980 paper and  laying claim to an idea that, as you say (and I knew too),  Mike Bachelor had had almost 20 years prior.  J.R.'s steamroller attitude came across, to me, as an attempt to make all other information moot. 

So I'll say it more clearly now, Mike Bachelor was ahead of you in that regard John, you should probably let it go.

And as it happens, another very talented guy on here P.M.'ed me during that thread letting me know that he had also looked at current source mixing in the past.  Just because he didn't bother to write a paper about it doesn't mean John  gets to make claim on it.
It's just audio equipment at the end of the day anyway, hardly something that will win Nobel prizes or get the SpaceX astronauts back to Earth. 

Anyway, the way I see it, when we  let go of egos and listen to each other, we find that there are actually lots of people out there with good ideas,  and we all learn from each other. 

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Regarding EMI schematics, in the past I've posted the REDD.47 before it was widely available elsewhere.
I posted the schematic for the T.G. Zener Limiter which was not available anywhere else online.
I posted the RS.124 which cost me a few good friends. 
I've let slip a few other juicy/interesting EMI nuggets along the way too.

I feel I've taken enough "for the team" already in terms of flack from EMI/Abbey Road,  so that's why I decided to call it quits in going there with further T.G. docs. 

 

[bluebird]

Do NOT underestimate what could happen on election day.  Very clever people are shouting from the rooftops (i.e. Stacey Abrams, President Obama) over the importance over this vote and Bluebird says "just relax."

I was talking about forum discussion, not peoples real political activism. I have no right to tell people to RELAX in general. Lol.

If I remember you told Desol he should be quiet.

True, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. I made a mistake in the heat of the moment because I was emotionally charged about it.

I felt bad that I came on so righteous and strong in my opinions. I usually don't do that. I was wrong to do it.
Desol, didn't respond and to me, that was a forgiving action and showed he had more character than I. Whatever his motivation was, I don't know, maybe he just lost interest. But I appreciated not getting the slap I deserved.

But the point is, we should be forgiven and the friendship and mutual respect should come first. We are all imperfect and an absolute mess, Ha! Keep that in mind, and things will be a lot easier around here.

I don't think we need the brewery. I cannot think of a single positive aspect of it.

I hear you Ian, at some point you have to weigh the good and the bad, pleasure and pain. Nothing in life is rosy all the time. I think  the Brewery has an acceptable balance of good and bad content, weighing heavier on the good. My life wouldn't change if it went away. But reading the Drawing Board at lunchtime would not be as engaging. 

And most importantly, time heals. Take a break and come back later. I've done it many times. My personal "perception" of the Brewery, is not the Brewery. Neither is anybody else's.

P.S.
Often people will come here with personal problems, and everyone rallies together to help. Its really amazing to see how much personal support is here underneath all the other BS. I think that is valuable.

 

[Phrazemaster]

While I appreciate the sentiment of the OP., I don't thinkI can agree with everything.
But I'm not sure I really care any more.

To be honest,  the illusion of family on here left me a few weeks ago.
Not in the Brewery, but in the Drawing Room,  during a thread on mixers.

I was treated, in my opinion,  very unfairly by John Roberts.
I was told so by another moderator who had wanted to say something but felt unable to.

That's when I decided I'm done participating in anything worthwhile.

I also find it a bit strange that the person whose political opinions I find most odious (not that anyone isn't entitled to an opinion) is also  a moderator who has the power to be warning people about things said in the Brewery.

Also, if I see someone who expresses an opinion that it's funny when folks are shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, I'm going to say  what I think of that opinion.  And I'm even less inclined to be nicer to that person.

Whatever, I'm probably done here in any meaningfully  anyway,

YFMMV.

That’s sad, because I like you and your contributions are always thoughtful, measured, brilliant, and compassionate.

Unfortunately it only takes a few negative experiences to sour someone - I do understand.

Just know there’s a whole bunch of people here, myself included, who deeply appreciate your presence and would be sad if you went away.

Mike

 

[Phrazemaster]

On another note, I think we can all use the experience of the brewery as a learning tool. We are not taught how to disagree with one another and remain civil. But it’s an essential skill.

We would all be better off keeping the brewery but learning how to talk about issues without trashing the other person.

 

[madswitcher]

Thank's  Mike.  Got your P.M. too and thanks for that also  
I have to  say that it was me who erased my own posts in that thread and I indicated later on in the thread that I'd done so.   
I did it because I felt I was being bulldozed by J.R. every single time I posted something.   

My replies there were directly in response to the question posed by the O.P.  and I thought it was information worth sharing.  I backed up my posts with figures, tables, and science so they weren't just wild opinions.    I wasn't  in any way saying that this would be the cure all of all mixer evils, I was just simply trying to help answer the question that was initially posed. 
However  J.R. seemed insistent on pushing his 1980 paper and  laying claim to an idea that, as you say (and I knew too),  Mike Bachelor had had almost 20 years prior.  J.R.'s steamroller attitude came across, to me, as an attempt to make all other information moot. 

Likewise my suggestion was an attempt to help the OP. - and thanks for clearing up the point on the deleted posts.  Apologies to JR if he considered my post a jibe at him.

On such fora  one can only take what at face value that which is presented on the screen, and to me that particular thread seemed to be one- sided, and closed to other points of view.

Time to close this one down I feel.

Best regards to all

Mike

 

[JohnRoberts]

I did think about it, which is why I asked why was it deleted (by whoever) and yet still allowed to be quoted.  There is some referential integrity missing here as it did not show Winston's side of the discussion.

I don't think they are Top Secret but probably Commercial In Confidence.  However, my attention has been drawn to this site:

http://www.phaedrus-audio.com/TG12345.htm    Which gives a simplified explanation.

Mike
[/quote]

From observation that current source is class A so will have the constant noise floor from running at 1/2 full scale output current. Plus, while the collector is high impedance, all the Rcs in parallel effectively load the bus increasing the noise gain.  The noise gain would equal  1+ Re divided by the total parallel impedance of all the Rc s. 

I am unsure what the actual benefit of that topology is.  Further any noise on the +V rail will be fed directly into the bus with a gain of -Re/Rc for every channel feeding the bus. Since that +V rail noise is surely coherent the +V noise is boosted Nx (-Re/Rc).

As I have shared before my synthesized current source reduced noise gain some 20dB in practice. I have been thinking about this for decades and regret that analog summing is now obsolete because I could improve upon what I did last century using modern parts.   

I apologize to the forum for this veer into (boring) console design.  8)

JR

Likewise my suggestion was an attempt to help the OP. - and thanks for clearing up the point on the deleted posts.  Apologies to JR if he considered my post a jibe at him.

On such fora  one can only take what at face value that which is presented on the screen, and to me that particular thread seemed to be one- sided, and closed to other points of view.

Time to close this one down I feel.

Best regards to all

Mike

No worries, JR is used to pulling arrows from his back...

Hopefully there are no more unresolved issues ( I somehow doubt that, but I am an optimist).

JR

 

[Winston OBoogie]

This  circuit is incomplete and, again, is from 1966. 

I've seen some pretty sophisticated summing circuits using valves from the computing technology department at my local Manchester University,    dating from 1948. 

How far do we need to go back? 

"There is nothing (much) new under the sun"

If it makes John  feel better about himself to own the idea, then have it.    More important things in life tbh. 

As mad switcher said "Time to close this one down I feel.",  its also time to close it down for me. 

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Virtual cornhole anyone?

I had to look Cornhole up . But it sounds about right.

Listen, I'm a big boy.  I don't need an apology from anyone.  I have lots of faults and I've said things on here that I've felt badly about afterwards.  Even if I hadn't  felt I'd done anything wrong, I'd like to think think I'd apologise if I'd done anything to upset  someone.


But it seems to me that someone here feels it's more important to be right than to step back a little and look at how someone else perceived something.

John Roberts just said:

"I unequivocally deny that I mistreated Winston"

Fair enough.  I felt differently.  His denial doesn't change that. 

I had a few good talks with the late Brad Wood (BCarso on here) about his departure which was for similar reasons but regarding another moderator.  Now *that*  was a big loss to everyone on here. 

For the first time in my life I'm just going to block  someone.  No idea how that'll work out?
But I have a hard time in real life  faigning niceness to someone who doesn't play cricket by a gentleman's rules so, why do it here. 

 

[Tubetec]

I found this ,

https://proverbicals.com/bridges

seems strangely appropriate for where we find ourselves .

probably something in there for everyone in the audience 

I liked the Welsh one ,

He that would be a leader must be a bridge. ~ Welsh Proverb

David.

 

[emrr]

I don't think we need the brewery. I cannot think of a single positive aspect of it.

Cheers

IAn

Oh, I've posted lots of links to historical audio articles there.....

 

[emrr]

I had a few good talks with the late Brad Wood (BCarso on here) about his departure which was for similar reasons but regarding another moderator.  Now *that*  was a big loss to everyone on here. 

Brad left, and then he passed away.  Two things that sucked.