Thatcher Legacy

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deuce42

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
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645
Location
Sydney, Australia
Said without trying to offend any British members here, and purely as an outsider's observation, it seems Thatcher raised one of the biggest philosophical questions of modern politics - At what point is economic reform far more important than the social issues or pain it may cause individuals?

This question is interesting to me. 

 
deuce42 said:
...Thatcher raised one of the biggest philosophical questions of modern politics - At point is economic reform far more important than the social issues or pain it may cause individuals?

And that is why she was hated (possibly) by half of the country.
 
it is hard to ignore the passing of a great leader.

To your question it seems the results of her administration's actions answer that neatly. I dislike lecturing about another countries history so I will wait for some forum members who lived through that period to share their impressions. I expect some will not hold her in the same high regard I do. She was no friend to the unions (like the mine workers), so I won't expect them to honor her passing.

I recall two famous quotes attributed to her worth repeating. 

#1 the problem with socialism is that you run out of other people's money to pay for it.
#2 If you have to tell people you are powerful or a lady, you are neither.

Sorry if I didn't get the quotes exact. She was a remarkable leader when her country needed one, and helped the west win the cold war, against powerful forces intent on our demise, not to mention that little skirmish down in the Falklands. 

RIP

JR

 
Friend of murderous dictator Pinochet. Advocate of apartheid regime in South Africa. Destroyed manufacturing industry and left a deregulated financial industry that crashed spectacularly in 2008. British trains privatized by her government are now operating less efficient than when they were state-owned. Inequality is higher while social mobility in the UK is lower than in most western industrialized countries. What a great leader indeed.
 
Her policies split the country largely-though not entirely- along geographic lines. It became known as the "north-south divide". She is as unpopular in the northern 2/3rds of the country as Ronald Reagan would have been in Allentown PA, or Bethlehem PA.

The majority of my friends went out last night and celebrated. -Apparently the cities of Glasgow, Liverpool, Leeds and several others tied a HUGE on on last night as a staggering number went out on a bender.

For my part, I don't share their delight. I take no pleasure in her death; it helps nobody. -What I wish for never happened. -I wished that the country could have survived her better.

This evening -as last evening- I will be going to rehearsal with 'my' British brass band. I've been associated with them for over a decade now, playing, recording and competing with them at the US national and US open brass band championships. -They've won the US open 4 times; and I love the spirit and cameraderie... not to mention the enjoyment of several craft beers afterwards. -I mention this because there's an enormous connection between brass bands and Northern British industry... Coal mining being one excellent example.

Thatcher closed many profitable mines, in part as a step in her unwavering determination to break the power of the unions. The social destruction which accompanied it, she seemed to regard merely as 'collateral damage'. -A necessary and ordinary part of the task she'd set herself.

This is from a British film from the 1990's about a coal-pit brass band at championship.-It's fiction in this instance, but based very solidly in fact. And Pete Postlethwaite (US viewers may also recognize Ewan McGregor before he became Obi-Wan) in this speech sums up the utter despair which gripped vast parts of the Northern population as few others ever have. -It's a short clip.

(click image to view)


By way of non-fiction reference, please also watch a section of this documentary of her years in Downing Street (the UK equivalent of a US leader's years at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.) This is from a documentary produced with her approval and cooperation, and is from hour #2 of a 4-hour total running length documentary.

(click image to view: it should take you directly to 24m,54sec, but if not, that's the time to view from.)


In this section beginning here, you see the coal mines, the trucks ('ERF' -E.R. Foden- and 'Foden'; Fodens is also a company with a great brass band) are turned away from a mine by pickets. -The mine appears to be 'Cory', which also boasted a championship brass band, and a community which began to struggle mightily. the MUSIC you hear is -naturally- a brass band.

Grimethorpe Colliery -another mine with a storied championship band- was also closed, with the familiar enormous damage to the community.

Part 1 of three, a documentary covering the closure of another mine, the loss of another community. Profitability was NOT a factor:


You could watch as much or as little as you wish... it's probably overkill by now, but there's more than enough to show what effect the policies of the Thatcher years had on the North of the country, and how she was viewed...

So now for some ways in which I personally benefited directly both from the Conservative's policies the animus and hostility which she engendered:

To begin with, I got my first studio job as a "YOP" employee. A method of cheaply sponsoring the unemployed to place them in work at no cost to the employer for a 6-month period, to keep the unemployment numbers down. -I was hired directly at the end of the 6-month spell, and have worked ever since. -In my case, that turned out to be a successful Job creation policy.

By the mid-1980's, I was chief engineer at the ONLY studio in the north of Britain which had an SSL console. -We had Total Recall too, and we were doing alright. -By then, there were a raft of British artists who were enjoying success in the USA, but almost all of the record companies to which they were signed were down south... in London. -Most of the Northern bands were so absolutely dead-set against going down to London and spending their advance down in the 'hated' South, that they would record anywhere in the north, even if that meant putting up with less-capable facilities.

As a result, I ended up engineering for bands like The Smiths (assistant engineer in 'Meat is Murder') very definitely because they were scornful of having to go down to record in the heart of Thatcherism. -I mention that artist specifically because the singer was back in the news again for his comments on her passing ("...without an atom of humanity"). -There were others; OMD, the Factory Records bands of course; New Order et al, no point in naming them all, but not just England. -The Scots artists were generally -if anything- even less keen on her.

But the studio thrived and I doubtless personally got several jobs which would have happily gone to London, were it not for the visceral hatred that so many acts felt towards her personally, and her policies almost secondarily.

But -for my own home town- there's one MORE reason that she's so utterly reviled. Nothing to do with economic policy, and -while I'm reluctant to use the same words as Stephen Morrisey- everything to do with humanity.

One week from today marks the 24th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster. Resulting from a combination of circumstantial events, 96 people were crushed to death. -The EVENTUAL determination was that the lack of a valid safety certificate at the football grounds, along with poor communication between the police forces (the radios apparently hardly worked on ite, for whatever reason) and several other factors led to football fans swarming into the ground, propelled forwards by Police on horseback, who also took the decision to open a second gate to allow more people in, alleviating the buildup outside. -It was a televised game, and the scenes were horrific.

Last year, it was eventually determined (this is 23 years after the disaster by the way) that Police officers who gave evidence had been forced to change their accounts, documents had been modified, witnesses pressured and other offenses all of which added to a reapportionment of the blame AWAY from the Police and onto the football fans.

Last year, the current Prime Minister stood before Parliament, and apologized publicly and unreservedly on behalf of the government for the now-apparent misdirection of 'justice'. -Mrs Thatcher continued in her refusal to acknowledge that there had been ANY injustice or impropriety. Beyond that, she recommended Norman Bettison and Bernard Ingham for Knighthoods for services rendered, blah blah, etc. 

MARGARET Thatcher’s former chief press secretary Sir Bernard Ingham today refused to apologise for blaming Liverpool FC fans for the Hillsborough disaster.
Sir Bernard refused to say whether he still blamed fans and said: “What have I to apologise for?”
He spoke after a letter written by Sir Bernard to Liverpool fan Graham Skinner in 1996 was this week handed to the Hillsborough Family Support Group (HFSG).
In it he said Liverpool should “shut up about Hillsborough”.

There's quite a bit more I could add, but for now, I'll just say that I don't share Elvis Costello's declared goal of making sure she stays buried..



'Celebrating' doesn't make anything better. I have no mood to celebrate. -As I said, I wish she hadn't taken a path which ensured so may people's livelihoods were destroyed by her laser-minded uncompromising and 'principled' intransigence...

I just wished that the country would have survived her better.
 
I'm shocked...( not really).

Mussolini is reported to have run a tight on-time railroad. FWIW.

No doubt she was a polarizing figure.

I will try to keep my opinions in check and lurk while UK citizens can vent.

JR



 
This is almost exactly what the Harper government is doing to Canada right now. Once in power, they ran up huge deficit and are now using it as an excuse to dismantle government, desecrate the environment, dropped taxes for corporations, rid the country of unions and generally make living in Canada very unpleasant.

Crisis politics at it's best/worst.

No surprised they worshipped at the Throne of Thatcher yesterday. Practically made her a Saint.

Mark
 
Hey Keith,

Thak you for that. "Brassed Off". A wonderful film and for Pete Postlethwaite. He was simply great.



 
Thanks Keith - great post and very well articulated.  As you can imagine, she was not well loved in Lancashire and Yorkshire, where I grew up and lived in the 70s and 80s. If you take a drive through the old colliery towns of South Yorkshire you can still see the effects of her legacy.

I don't take any pleasure in her passing and think the parties are in bad taste, but as students we did celebrate when when she was ousted from power.

Cheers
Stewart
 
JohnRoberts said:
I'm shocked...( not really).

Mussolini is reported to have run a tight on-time railroad. FWIW.

No doubt she was a polarizing figure.

I will try to keep my opinions in check and lurk while UK citizens can vent.

I understand. -Well, at least I think I understand.

However, please accept and appreciate that my earlier post was not intended to be entirely 'neutral'. -On the contrary I deliberately 'weighted' it towards the side of the "victim".

However, it's probably also true that the 'losers' in the Thatcher wars are not an entirely homogeneous entity. -While Thatcher was an extraordinarily unifying figure for her opponents, there were definitely grains of truth at the center of the cultured pearls of her policy.

For example, while the 'benefits scrounger' is an often-cited reason by Conservatives, and equally often-denied by the socialists, I can assure you that I knew a couple. -not many, and only a small percentage, but they did exist. I can't say if they still do, would I be surprised if they did? -Perhaps not. -When a leader can be so convincingly portrayed as entirely villainous, all small differences are forgot. -'Any enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine', kind of thing.

Should I confess this? -I'll probably catch hell for it, but I suppose I can't claim to be honest if I conceal it, so here goes: -I voted for her.

It wasn't until I began to build up a conviction -reluctant at first, but stronger by degrees- that she wouldn't EVER concede any degree of 'wrongness' -no matter how clearly shown- that I really began to lose faith in her. -In hindsight, I wish I'd have gone the other way, but probably so did so many others. -That 1983 election -for example- was called in the post-Falklands Euphoria (a time when Casper Weinberger was apparently of a FAR greater assistance to the UK than Margaret's celebrated partner Ronald Reagan, interestingly!) and I'm sure that any number of people would have cast that ballot differently, as the axe began to fall and the 'union-crushing-at-all costs' approach began to strengthen.

But then, the unions really HAD grown too large. -They HAD begun to go much too far with secondary picketing, and so many of the overtly 'militant' approaches and tactics. I think that they'd grown far beyond their original remit of 'protecting the oppressed' and grown in the direction of 'demanding' in their own interests, sort of thing. -When things get THAT far out of shape, perhaps the only way to restore any sensible degree of 'normality' requires an even MORE heavy-handed oppression.

I don't know for sure, and I may be entirely wrong in my own deconstruction and analysis. -I doubt I'll ever be able to be certain that I fully understand how it happened, but I doubt that Thatcher was solely and individually responsible for ALL the ills... her manner and high-handed approach though, made her a magnetic target for criticism.

And with a press that hasn't lost its touch for 'nickname simplification' over the centuries, Thatcher 'the milk snatcher' became 'The Iron Lady'.

I feel both fortunate and somewhat guilty to have 'escaped'. If I was still living over there, I think I should feel fortunate to have survived. -It was certainly a trying time for ALL of us in the north.

There's a BIG pie of blame, and an awful lot of slices with a lot of people's names on it. It's not ALL 'her fault' -I doubt anything's really ever all that simple... -But there's certainly a fair-sized slice with the name 'Margaret' on it.
 
She was the first female British Prime Minister. That's about all the positive I can think of.

Aside from what's already been said (the privatisation policy of national utilities was an absolute disaster), an awful legacy of Thatcher is the way she supported Murdoch - culminating in her successor's deregulation of media monopoly laws, enabling the Australian-American psychopath to exert his political will over 40% of the media. She even ordered the Police to perform Murdoch's dirty work in Wapping... I cannot state vehemently enough how pernicious an effect the News International media monopoly has over Britain's general morale. The Leveson Inquiry is the absolute tip of the iceberg.

From Thatcher we got Bliar, and onto the - albeit less murderous (at this point) - just as ghastly and vacuous Cameron. To think, our own PM goes horse riding with the person who commissioned the phone of a dead school girl be hacked...

I don't think the country would be worse off if Ronnie and Reggie Kray were in No.10 - seriously. I hold Cameron, Thatcher and Bliar in the same regard. 

We need constitutional reform. Democracy isn't working in the UK. 

edit - in case it looks offensive, note that I say 'Australian-American' to illustrate that he's got no patriotic reason to ensure his rags don't stir up hatred and prejudice. I don't mean it as a slight to anyone from Aus or the USA.
 
zebra50 said:
I don't take any pleasure in her passing and think the parties are in bad taste, but as students we did celebrate when when she was ousted from power.
I remember that day. -I was soldering up a patchbay when the vote went down... Heseltine and the 'stalking horse' approach in the long build-up to that evening.

I also remember watching her leaving live on TV. -Yes, THAT was the time for 'celebration', not yesterday. -Yesterday was in bad taste.

Thatcherout_zps8098018e.jpg
 
I recall it distinctly - the technicians put the radio on in teaching labs (chemistry degree!) - the only day that ever happened, apart from during the Ashes series.

Anyway, Rest In Peace....

thatcher_savile_together.jpg


(sorry...)
 
SSL-keith, great post, thanks for the very personal insight.

zebra50 said:
(sorry...)

dammit I try to stay a way from these political threads but *snort* beer through the nose.




Also don't the Irish celebrate death instead of mourning, I've always found that refreshing. "let's face it the **** deserved to die" etc. stereotypes, even us Finns know this.

Dancing on the grave bullsh*t aside someone who made it up to 87 in a generally hostile political climate just had an apt funeral.
 
Im from yorkshire, now live in lancashire, but was born toward the end of her time.

Although I don't agree with her political policies, at least she was a strong leader that actually managed to push many of her ideals and policies through. Which is a lot more than can be said for past and current governments. We seem to be stuck in a loop of voting in one party, who proceed to spend their time undoing all of the previous governments work and not delivering any of their promises. So we get annoyed and vote in the (only) other choice. Who do exactly the same, and so on..
All the while, both sides manage to completely ignore the ever growing social problems the uk faces.
 
ramshackles said:
Im from yorkshire, now live in lancashire, but was born toward the end of her time.

Although I don't agree with her political policies, at least she was a strong leader that actually managed to push many of her ideals and policies through. Which is a lot more than can be said for past and current governments. We seem to be stuck in a loop of voting in one party, who proceed to spend their time undoing all of the previous governments work and not delivering any of their promises. So we get annoyed and vote in the (only) other choice. Who do exactly the same, and so on..
All the while, both sides manage to completely ignore the ever growing social problems it faces.

we have the same thing going on here across the pond
 
Thanks Keith.

Now, this is certainly saying something about the way people feel:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead-could-reach-number-one-following-margaret-thatchers-death-8566042.html
 
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