The B3hr!ng3r C -2 Matched Pair of SDC Mics for $50 - MODS?

[smallbutfine]

OK,
heard these smallish C2 babies yesterday. We just did a short first testing session and my first impression was that they are pretty neutral sounding.
We did some voice recording only for about 15 min. and didn't notice a great lack of low end (our impression was that they have more low end as we expected, the high end was ok sounding, not penetrant). They ARE more like hyper cardiod.

Very solid hardware package, sennheiser type clips, a cool small all-in-one box.

A great value for this money...getting 2 (well matched) condensors for half the price of an SM58 (at least here in germany) with all that great accessories in a nice box... a no-brainer.
Time to order some more... :grin:

Kind regards

Martin

PS: Sorry, PRR, here some answers...

Do they feel like they will survive more than one gig? A dozen?

Very solid built. Feel like they will survive more than 50 for sure... extremely usable. however the stereo rail is more kinda junk or gimmick (plastic). Everything else will be cool live equipment.

Do they hiss, sizzle, rattle, clank?

We did not notice any of this.

Do they do anything awful to the sound? Is that ~9KHz ring really a few dB or is the published curve "smoothed"? I don't consider the far-field bass slope, -10dB at 50Hz, a fault in a low-price mike that may be used close; is the published curve roughly right and can it be semi-corrected with mild EQ?

We strongly discussed this topic yesterday. A little shelving and mild eqing would do it. My friend Armin (the proud owner) wouldn't mind using them for universal live uses (he works as a live mixing engineer) without any fears of heavy eq problems...
EDIT: From our first impression and without any measuring we can confirm the the published curve.

Is the self-hiss level low in a quiet room?

Yes, they are very quiet.

Is the buzz level low when you drape the cable over a Fender amp? (I doubt the mikes are really balanced output, but if not too unbalanced and fairly low-Z, then buzz may be manageable.)

We first had a (-56dB) buzz problem on one of them in a very heavy environment (5m cable laying around the electribe tubes and a tube mic psu...) that turned out to be fully cable related (we replaced it and there was no audible hum).

If you put the two mikes close together and plug one to each ear, does the image sit near the center or are they poorly matched? If the match can be fixed with a few dB of gain or balance control, that's fine; if you can't get a narrow mono image with just gain adjustment then some types of stereo recording get goofy.

That's what we tried at first. The result was that at least our pair was very, very well matched. We could not tell one from another and got a nearly perfect stereo image (make a radio play with them...).[/quote]

 

[PRR]

Thank you VERY MUCH for the review.

:grin: :grin: :grin:

zZounds and most other vendors are showing next-week or even "early 2006", but Lentine's is showing "in-stock, 2-3 day shipping".

 

[Svart]

Thanks for the review!

Maybe B*hringer has departed from the bargain basement parts and got smart about what they use.. Using something cheap is totally different from buying something cheap and bad sounding..

we'll see shortly when i get mine!

:thumb:

 

[KingKai]

PRR,

Thankx for the Lentine's tip.

I ordered 2 pair. They showed as in stock all the way through checkout....
We'll see. :roll:

At this price, it's pretty hard to pass up. I'll compare to MXL 603's.


Peace - Out

Irv

 

[Svart]

got mine today.. they are actually very heavy. :shock: however.. they aren't nearly as nicely made as my oktava mc012s.. I have yet to open them up though.

Some thoughts though, The capsule is small. smaller than the 603 capsule. it *looks* like the capsule that was being shipped with the "Alice" mic over in the BM. when i get the thing apart I'll report more.

:thumb:

 

[Tungstengruvsten]

we had a case of these come into work last week, I took two out, and did some tests with a pair of MC012's and a pair of AKG c430's....sent the case back! brutal.

:shock: surprise! :shock: they sound like shit. it was like a translator that removed all the consonants from my voice and turned them into mush. muddy, not overly bright, no comparison to either of the other mic's. sound like their price. And yes they say cardioid but are marked hyper on the capsule....also, the capsules aren't interchangeable with the other behringer b5's/studio projects c4/rode nt5 size capsules...i'm also pretty convinced that by 'matched pair' they meant they looked the same cause they sounded quite different. I tried another pair at the shop to rule out the ones I had were duds and they sounded equally as shiiite.

my .02.

 

[Gus]

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1664&brandID=2

looked at the above samsons for someone. They did not sound good to me no low end I wonder if the the Bs are like them inside IIRC the samsons were a schoeps type with an electret capsule.

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="Svart"]
Some thoughts though, The capsule is small. smaller than the 603 capsule. it *looks* like the capsule that was being shipped with the "Alice" mic over in the BM. [/quote]

The Behringer is a true condenser, was the Alice not an electret capsule?

[quote author="Gus"]http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1664&brandID=2

looked at the above samsons for someone. They did not sound good to me no low end I wonder if the the Bs are like them inside IIRC the samsons were a schoeps type with an electret capsule.[/quote]

Again, the Behringers are supposedly true condensers, although I suppose the circuit is likely to be similar with respect to copying the Schoeps design.

 

[Svart]

ok got a chance to open them up..

what a task.

1. get a beer.
2. get a small flat screwdriver
3. you will likely need a pair of needle nosed tweezers.
4. get another beer.
5. twist off the capsule, remark at how cheap the plastic backing to the capsule is, and how the use of a brass screw instead of a machined pin saved you a ton of money.
6. the switch has a small cover that you can pull out with the tweezers. do it.
7. unwrap the sticker from around the perimeter of the body. there is a screw underneath.
8. unscrew this screw.
9. drink your beer, it's probably getting warm by now.
10. start to slowly press down on the exposed portion and the xlr end should start to come out. the crinkly noise is tape wrapped around the PCB and components. be careful not to bunch this up as it is a pain in the ass after you bunch it up.
11. notice the threaded ring screwed into the top of the body. find something thin but sturdy to set down into the notches and twist it out.
12. at this point you can do one of two things. you can desolder the xlr pins from the board and pull it off, or you can do what I did and cut the nub off of the plastic around the XLR pins. either of these allow you to slide the assembly back up through the body and out.
13. finish 2nd beer.


ok now that this PCB is out.. notice a few things that pop out at you right away.. the capsule coupling capacitor is Y5P. yep CRAP. it's not only Y5P, it's only 470pf. The FET is 2n5457 at least but the make is unknown. the bias resistor looks like the 680M that we usually see in the 797 microphones.. hey wait.. look at the back of the PCB.. yessir.. 797. The other amplifying part is 2n5401, PNP. the Caps are regular jamicon. the other resistors are 1/8w 5% carbon films.

Looks like a hodgepodge of old and new designs but using cheapass parts.

very small area to work in but i'm gonna give it a go.

1st up, bye bye Y5P caps.

:green:

EDIT: I haven't dug the capsule out of the head yet, just took a quickie look at it. Don't know if it *IS* electret but the high value R tells me that it's a true condenser. What i meant though is that it has a metal cover with holes through it under the screen. this reminds me of how the Alice mic's capsule looked.

 

[Svart]

ok the capsule is out.. it's an off the shelf part, trying to find it now..

 

[rodabod]

This is all sounding good.

Any chance of some photos?

 

[Svart]

I am 99% positive that this is a Transsound capsule Identical to the one in the Alice.. or at least close.

EDIT:

this is it:

http://jlielectronics.com/transsound/electrets/tsb-160a.htm

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="Svart"]I am 99% positive that this is a Transsound capsule Identical to the one in the Alice.. or at least close.

EDIT:

this is it:

http://jlielectronics.com/transsound/electrets/tsb-160a.htm[/quote]

WTF?

Behringer claimed it was a true condenser.... That's an electret.

There's nothing wrong with electrets, but still....

 

[Svart]

well it IS a condenser.. :?

but if the alice mic sounds good there is no reason that these shouldn't be able to sound good too.

I modded one with new caps and removing a couple layers of screening and we'll see what it compares like.

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="Svart"]well it IS a condenser.. :?
[/quote]

Your right, and the Alice has proven how good electrets can sound with these capsules.

But,

[quote author="Behringer"]Transducer Type: True Condenser, 16mm[/quote]

Liars! No?

 

[Svart]

b*hringer.. liars? NO NOT THAT. :green:

 

[northsiderap]

My kinda informal review:

I opened the mics, and was suprised to find that they weren't cheap and light feeling like I expected them to be. Decent build (for the price.)

I cracked them open, and one of them smelled very strongly for grapefruits. WTF?

I set them up in an XY about 4' off the ground and 3' in front of my drums in my drum room, and I was pleased for the price. I'm guessing I'll throw them in whenever I need something a little brighter than my older mics.

Output was kind of low.. BTW, I used a Studiomaster Diamond mixer mic pre panned 75% left and 75% right. Set the gain at @55db. Still needed lots of makeup gain.

Here is the recording... I only moved the mic stand once by turning it about 90 degrees once I was done with the drums. I stood up to play the guitars and banjo. Bass is direct.

This was recorded ONLY with the XY C2's...

http://northsiderap.com/Music2/PlainsOnTheBrainsMP3.mp3

EQ: Added a little low end on the stereo drum track. Hyped up the high end on everything else, except for the drums which I 'un-hyped' the high end.

Compressed and Reverbed the banjo. Mixed down to file.

Compressed and EQ'd once again. Saved.

This is an improvisation, & I did all of the instruments. I only started on the banjo this fall, so excuse the slop.

 

[MATTI]

That was nice to listen at 03.45 am!
Regards Matti

 

[Scodiddly]

It's possible that Transsound has other capsules, or is making variations for other companies. So I wouldn't 100% rule out the "true" condensor angle. Is there a bias voltage on the capsule, something more than you'd need to bias the FET? A coupling cap between capsule and FET would seem to indicate a condensor bias voltage, though maybe it's just a borrowed design that has some extra bits.

 

[Michael_Joly]

Just took mine apart. I agree with Svart that the capsule looks identical to Transound TSB-160A. Though there sure is 470pf cap from the capsule to the FET. Could transound be building these as externally polarized condensers and sticking them in the TSB-160A case as Skodiddly suggests?

At any rate, I managed to squeeze in a 1000pf polypro in place of the ceramic. I didn't have any other caps small enough to go in there to replace the electros. The HF noise appeared to be attenuated a few dB and the spectral density shifted down in frequency with the cap change - is that possible or am I just hearing differences between the two mics?

The published S/N of that transound capsule: 66dB sounds more like what I'm hearing for noise than Behringer's claimed S/N of 75dB.

Also pulled out the fine wire mesh leaving the coarse mesh, no noticable hum. With the cap change from ceramic to poly and the wire mesh out the top end is a little smoother.

I wish they didn't build those capsules with the perforated can over the diaphragm. That has got to being doing bad things to the HF response. In fact if you rub your fingers over the case while listening in headphones you can hear the real narrow-band HF peakiness.

I still think these things are too noisy for solo guitar work and a bit crispy on top in general.

<10 minutes later>

duh...nothing like brushing your teeth to get your thinking cap on.

That cap between the FET and capsule in the C2 is the only connection (other than case ground) to the capsule. The biasing resistor goes to the FET side of the capacitor, not the capsule side.

I'm betting electret.

and I'm wondering if I can grind off the top of the case, get rid of the solid top / perforated top surface and expose the diaphragm. Did Marik do that in his miniature electret project or am I dreaming?