The B3hr!ng3r C -2 Matched Pair of SDC Mics for $50 - MODS?

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I put a russian condenser capsule on it and it sounds a lot less harsh.

The product info states that it is a true condenser mic - - -

If my russian capsule works on it does that confirm that it is not an electret?

Thinking about it, the only way I would attempt to take that HF disc off of the diaphragm would be to make a circular cutting jig with a high-carbon knife to slowly etch into the HF disc.

I'm guessing difficulty = moderately high, at least if you want to manage to salvage that capsule.

Also:

What'd you use to pull out the mesh? Did it come out the front without complaints?
 
You've got an externally polarized Russian capsule and not an electret? I don't see how the polarization voltage can reach the capsule in the C2 as its AC coupled through that 470pf.

re: HF disc. Instead of cutting it off while the diaphragm is still in the capsule case, I'm thinking of disassembling the case, pulling the guts out, then cutting open the front portion of the case to expose the diaphragm when reasembled. The back side of the case appears to have a lip that is folded over the back surface. I'm going to try and pry it open.

re: wire mesh. Once I pulled the plastic retaining ring out of the back side of the capsule headbasket and removed the capsule, the two-layer wire mesh came right out from the back side of the headbasket. Then it was easy to separte the two layers and reinstall just the coarse mesh.
 
[quote author="Michael_Joly"]You've got an externally polarized Russian capsule and not an electret? I don't see how the polarization voltage can reach the capsule in the C2 as its AC coupled through that 470pf. [/quote]

How crappy & cheap are the components they used ? Could it that they've used such crappy caps that the leakage gives you a 1G resistor in // for free ? :grin:

All nonsense of course, but indeed a bit odd they've advertised this as a true condenser.
At least Samson didn't lie about their CO3 (or was it the CO1) by avoiding the use of the word 'true'.

Regards,

Peter
 
An electret is a "true" condenser. Condenser is the old term for a capacitor.

There has be at least one thread here about the sampson c01/c03 microphones. I have two samson c01 and they are noisy and hypercardiod.

I changed the C01 ceramics to polystyenes I changed the fet. The noise is from the capsule. The c01 capsule is an electret in a baffle ring. The c01 capsule is an electret without any electronics in it going to a IIRC 470pf cap and 510meg resistor. I think the noise is from the effect one gets cupping ones hands to their ears to "hear the ocean"

The circuit in the new B sounds like the B5s without the DC to DC converter and using an electret capsule like the one in the C01 type microphones. IIRC A fet and a NPN I think it is kind of like the older T powered neumann circuit I found in an german PDF at the neumann site. I have looked at the B5 circuit and parts.

Look at the C03 thread there is a picture of the capsule cut apart.

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=2543&highlight=samson+c03
 
it's a FET and a PNP in these.

The capsule is NOT biased, the gate of the JFET is though.

When Marik and I got together on the ECM8k mods and PCBs, I ended up cutting the capsules opening up to the max without cutting it back far enough to allow the disc to come out.

I'll be cutting one of mine back far enough to expose the full disc on one of them but I expect the HF response to fall a bit. we'll see what happens.

the transsound datasheet shows no polarization or bias voltage for the capsule at all, it shows the capsule output right into the impedence converting JFET.

Makes me wonder why B*ehringer decided to bias the Gate of the FET.. :?:
 
Regarding removal of the perforated faceplate -

I've modified a few TSB-165A capsules that way. First one I did myself, the rest went to a really good local machinist (a not-so-good local machinist butchered a couple capsules and gave up). The faceplate is stainless steel, and the best approach is probably to hold the capsule in a lathe and use a sharp edge to slice into the material.

Anyway, the modification does flatten out the response nicely. The high frequency boost from the perforations isn't that bad sounding to begin with, but I personally like the modified capsule's sound.
 
Good news: I was able to open the capusle case, remove the guts and cut open the front surface of the case. Also removed yet another wire mesh from in front of the diaphragm. Entire diaphragm diameter is now visiable from the front of the headbasket.

Bad news: Upon re-assembly output is now very low with strong high frequency "papery" handling noise. If this is an electret, did I discharge the polarization voltage during handling?

I really wish they wouldn't use that perforated case / HF boost design. Just let the capsule have a natural roll off.
 
[quote author="Gus"]An electret is a "true" condenser. Condenser is the old term for a capacitor.[/quote]

OK, I see. So far I assumed "true" was reserved for the 'real' (...) stuff, so for those capsules needing an applied DC-voltage across their capacitor-plates.
Just wondering, if electrets also qualify as true condensers (and I believe you, it's just new for me) then what kind of condenser-mics are not true ? None left as I understand it.

Regards,

Peter
 
Is it possible to add a bias to an electret capsule for better response?

Perhaps there is a way to 'discharge' some of the bias as has been suggested?
 
I think electret microphones can be fine. AT microphones use them in the 4033 a much better capsule than the one in the samson c01 to my ears (I have both microphones) A back electret has the charge on the backplate so the skin can be like a capsule that uses a external charge on the backplate.

How good is the capsule and how good is the circuit? I would like to try a newer AKG with the kind of 1/2 of ck12 electret capsule with a good circuit behind it.
 
[quote author="Michael_Joly"]
Bad news: Upon re-assembly output is now very low with strong high frequency "papery" handling noise. If this is an electret, did I discharge the polarization voltage during handling?
[/quote]

Is that possible?

Did you touch the diaphragm or affect any vents on the back of the mic or anything?
 
This thread makes me think this microphone is priced OK.

I think modding it might be a waste of time because of the capsule. My stock C01 with the schoeps type circuit does not sound bad as long as you have enought level to override the noise of the capsule.
 
[quote author="Svart"]
When Marik and I got together on the ECM8k mods and PCBs, I ended up cutting the capsules opening up to the max without cutting it back far enough to allow the disc to come out.
[/quote]

Svart, I'm having trouble picturing this. Did you cut away metal from the front of the capsule? I thought about doing that but didn't want to get metal filings in the diaphram or punture it.
 
[quote author="Gus"]This thread makes me think this microphone is priced OK.
[/quote]

yeah, its a $25 mic that's only good as a learning platform, not a recording tool.

The more I think about the hiss this thing makes the more it reminds me of the hiss that used to come off half track 1/4" tape at 15 ips. About that level.
 
...assuming it's the TSB-165 capsule...

Replacing the circuitry with the same stuff as the Alice (basically the Shoeps circuit) should result in a very quiet mic.
 
> then what kind of condenser-mics are not true?

Dunno, but MANY years ago my brother bought what looked like a good ribbon-style broadcast mike, and it was just a crystal mike. I think the box left it to your imagination.

> Just wondering, if electrets also qualify as true condensers

Sure. The blurb "true condenser" may have been picked to let your imagination run wild, but it is not false.

And what IS the difference? The mike does not care what made the charge it feels.

We can even argue that a good electret is a more steady quiet stable bias source than a 90V battery, a nasty little DC-DC converter, or stealing ~40V from the Phantom while also powering a hi-current transformerless output.

There are several types of electrets which is why we have different opinions.

The cheapest way is to put a charge on a thin film and use it as the diaphragm. Of course the ideal diaphragm has low mass and high strength, and most electret-chargeable films are second-rate in this area. But of course on a $25 mike, or even a $200 mikes, you are going to get a second-rate film: if you wanted the very best you would bring a lot more money.

An alternate is to put the electret on the back-plate. Now mass and strength are meaningless. Apparently this costs more; maybe not a lot more. However, if I did not need decade-to-decade calibration, I'd take back-electret any day. (Electrets decay: 10 dB a year in 1966, but my ~1980 electrets have not lost more than a few dB in 25+ years.)

The mess of $1 electrets found everywhere all include the FET, which simplifies integration but is almost never good for loud music, may be colored at medium-loud. But there are electret capsules without the internal amplifier, such as my Nakamichi/Teac interchangeable-head mikes.

> TSB-160A http://jlielectronics.com/transsound/electrets/tsb-160a.htm

That part says it has the FET inside. Note the suggested schematic and the 0.5mA current requirement. That conflicts with Svart's description of a 470pFd cap and a 680M resistor, which sure suggests external FET. But note that Transsound's own page is self-conflicted: the schematic shows a 3-terminal capsule, but the mechanical drawing sure suggests a 2-terminal capsule? It is possible some idiot webmaster (I been one myself) cut-pasted generic info without knowing that this model is a special. And of course when Uli calls and orders a million, Transsound will be happy to do it his way, and even happier if they can use tooled-up case and terminals from an existing model. (What this may really mean: Uli can buy cheaper FETs than Transsound can....)

The low-frequency noise is the barely big enough 680M resistor, a few Gig might be quieter, though I don't have a room with blower rumble so low that it matters. The high frequency hiss, if not just crappy FET, is the acoustic damping that controls the top-end resonance. Probably not the screen and shell, though maybe. Mainly the holes in the backplate, and also fairly small size and modest bias for a High Quality mike (but then, it's $25 and may be driving an $8 preamp).

If it is a too-cheap FET, then a swap might improve the noise.

Is this SMD? I hate modding SMD.

> Is it possible to add a bias to an electret capsule for better response?

I'm not sure how. The electret's "low" side is generally crimped into the shell or bonded to the backplate. I suppose jacking the backplate terminal around will shift the total bias.

But why? Small change in bias gives small change in sensitivity. That's why some of these models come in several sub-versions of different sensitivity: they sort-out sloppy electret and spacing tolerances. In commercial design, you should design your cellfone/whatever for the lowest-spec (cheapest!) grade, and if you were forced to take a higher grade then you would trim-down something in your preamp until the too-good lot was used-up. Other than that, there is no point in small bias change: you have a trimmer on your preamp.

Large increase of bias will increase sensitivity a bit, then the sound changes a bit as the diaphragm bows toward the backplate, then SLAM the diaphragm is sucked into the backplate and the mike goes dead. Sensitivity is good, so a mike-maker always gives all the bias that is safe, within production tolerances. The difference between sloppy commercial-tolerance bias and a maximum useful bias is not even a notch on your preamp gain knob. No response change will happen until it is on the jagged edge of collapse.
 
Here is something I whipped up quick-like. I'm guessing the Q's are not right - - - amongst other things. Probably emitter follower tho, eh?

I hope this doesn't mean I have too much time on my hands :?

C2Mic.jpg


I have the CM file if anyone wants to continue this...
 
northside, I see a few things that need to be changed in your schemo.. the 680(?)M R is biasing the FET gate not the capsule as shown. second, Q1 is PNP not NPN. I have 2n5401 stuffed here.
 
Northside -

I see an important revision - you show the 470pf coupling cap and 680M resistor tied to the capsule. The 680M is actually on the other side of the 470pf (at least in my mic).

I looked at this thing 10 different times to confirm this: the only connection to the capsule is through the 470pf.

BC2cap.jpg


This pic shows the flat high value resisitor tied to the FET and coupling cap. (1000pf replacement polypro). The only connection to the bottom of the retracting capsule contact pin is through this cap.

But here's a real stumper...

Last night I took an MC-012 capsule and physically held it onto the C2 body. The 012 contact pin reaches the retracting contact point and I was able to ground the 012 case to the C2 case. Guess what?

The 012, a known external polarization capsule, worked. Output was a little low but it sounded like an O12 when I spoke into it.

This would suggest a bias connection to the capsule but there is no electrical connection between that high value R and the capsule.
 

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